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This sub-thread isn't really about what is legal (or illegal) in Europe or any other jurisdiction. It is about what is right. When it comes to legality and enf

by fastball 11mo ago

This sub-thread isn't really about what is legal (or illegal) in Europe or any other jurisdiction. It is about what is right. When it comes to legality and enforcement though, it does seem highly inconsistent to enforce something like this, which isn't actually discrimination on its own (rather it could lead to discrimination), when at the same time orgs are very obviously participating in actual discrimination ("we'd like this role to be filled by {insert group here}") in Europe and elsewhere.

ivan_gammel 11mo ago
> This sub-thread isn't really about what is legal (or illegal) in Europe or any other jurisdiction. It is about what is right. My argument wasn’t about whether it’s legal or not. It’s discrimination, which is both illegal and wrong. > when at the same time orgs are very obviously participating in actual discrimination I don’t think so. Please provide evidence. Which orgs and where? In Germany all job postings explicitly say „(m/w/d)“ in title (male/female/diverse). I would be surprised to see any demographic-related constraints as they are easily challenged in court.
- fastball 11mo ago
  You brought up Europe, so I assumed you were making a legal argument. Right and wrong isn't dependent on the region you are in, imo. > In Germany all job postings explicitly say „(m/w/d)“ Great, and what is actually stopping someone from only hiring men, or only hiring women? Putting "m/w/d" in a job posting is performative nonsense. Jobs are not granted automatically when you interview, they are discretionary. It is trivially easy for someone with hiring authority to not hire a woman because they are a woman, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.
  - ivan_gammel 11mo ago
    Are you making an excuse for discrimination in ads by saying that discrimination exists on later stages?
    - fastball 11mo ago
      An excuse? Not really. I see no issue with discrimination in ads. Ads are not a public good / human right.

ivan_gammel 11mo ago

> This sub-thread isn't really about what is legal (or illegal) in Europe or any other jurisdiction. It is about what is right. My argument wasn’t about whether it’s legal or not. It’s discrimination, which is both illegal and wrong. > when at the same time orgs are very obviously participating in actual discrimination I don’t think so. Please provide evidence. Which orgs and where? In Germany all job postings explicitly say „(m/w/d)“ in title (male/female/diverse). I would be surprised to see any demographic-related constraints as they are easily challenged in court.

fastball 11mo ago
You brought up Europe, so I assumed you were making a legal argument. Right and wrong isn't dependent on the region you are in, imo. > In Germany all job postings explicitly say „(m/w/d)“ Great, and what is actually stopping someone from only hiring men, or only hiring women? Putting "m/w/d" in a job posting is performative nonsense. Jobs are not granted automatically when you interview, they are discretionary. It is trivially easy for someone with hiring authority to not hire a woman because they are a woman, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.
- ivan_gammel 11mo ago
  Are you making an excuse for discrimination in ads by saying that discrimination exists on later stages?
  - fastball 11mo ago
    An excuse? Not really. I see no issue with discrimination in ads. Ads are not a public good / human right.