4 ms·

It kind of is https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf The problem is that tax collection also happens with congressional ap

It kind of is https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf The problem is that tax collection also happens with congressional approval.

inglor_cz 1y ago
This seems to be a somewhat inefficient system. There is no absolute need to consider aviation fees to be taxes and collect them through a federal agency. Individual airports should be capable of financing their local ATC as they see fit, be it their own airport fees or, IDK, a surcharge on hamburgers sold in the local McD or a gift from a wealthy sponsor; and they should only have a duty to maintain certain technical standards.
- estearum 1y ago
  Are you certain maintaining those technical standards would be much more efficient than the current system?
  - inglor_cz 1y ago
    Certain is a strong word, but in many other contexts, this is the actually used system, even in aviation. The FAA requires certain standards of maintenance for aircraft, for example, but individual mechanics aren't FAA employees.
    - estearum 1y ago
      Yeah, maintenance seems extremely different from ATC though. Defining and enforcing maintenance standards is trivial and happens well outside the second-to-second operational loop of aircraft actually coordinating.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    Considering the FAA has been fucking around for decades attempting to recapitalize and modernize the ATC network -- yes. See: https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-108162 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-108162 And I do not use "fucking around" lightly. The FAA's repeatedly delayed and ineffective upgrade effort makes even the original healthcare.gov look like the Apollo program.
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  There’s a whole network of radars and communication centers that are not part of any specific airport. How would you fund that through use fees at an airport?
  - inglor_cz 1y ago
    A common fund?
    - bobthepanda 1y ago
      That's what we have today. In the US system, any revenue collection needs to be authorized by Congress. In fact, it is one of the arguments currently being argued in front of the Supreme Court about the tariffs.
  - philipwhiuk 1y ago
    You could do airspace overflight fees similar to how it works when you overfly other countries. It would make routing a tonne more complex tho
    - inglor_cz 1y ago
      On the other hand, if the fees corresponded to actual use, that would mean that the infrastructure along the most frequented corridors would automatically be the best funded one, which would probably be overall positive.
      - ryandrake 1y ago
        For VFR flights, communication with ATC is optional until/unless you get into busy Class D or better airspace. If the fees are paid by any pilot passing through the ARTCC's zone, regardless of whether they use ATC, then it wouldn't be fair for the single engine piper putzing around over his backyard. If the fees are paid by only pilots who use ATC, then pilots will stop voluntarily using ATC, leading to decreased overall safety.
    - 1y ago
- themafia 1y ago
  > no absolute need to consider aviation fees to be taxes and collect them through a federal agency. What if you collect too much? The fund is subject to appropriations. > financing their local ATC as they see fit We already use mileage based overflight fees: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overflight_fees https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overf...
  - throw0101a 1y ago
    > What if you collect too much? You lower fees the next year.
    - themafia 1y ago
      Then if you collect too little? Where does the excess come from? Do you keep the fees high and pay that back next year? Do you account for inflation or charge points? Is there some reason you _don't_ want this system to have slightly more funding than it "needs?"
      - throw0101a 1y ago
        Nav Canada, the non-profit which runs Canada's ATC, charges user fees which they adjust every so often, but they also have buffer/contingency funds. Quarterly/annual financial reports are available at their site: * https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/investor-relations/financial-information.aspx https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/investor-relations/fin... * https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/service-charges.aspx https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/service-charges.aspx
        bobthepanda 1y ago
        It is worth noting that Nav Canada also has controller shortages. Privatization is not really correlated with with better outcomes for ATC. https://globalnews.ca/news/11354998/air-traffic-controller-shortages-airport-delays/ https://globalnews.ca/news/11354998/air-traffic-controller-s...
- cameldrv 1y ago
  It's a perfectly fine system. It just relies on our elected representatives not playing a game of chicken to get what they want, and act in the best interests of the country. Unfortunately, for a whole lot of reasons, they haven't been able to do this intermittently since the mid nineties.

It kind of is https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf The problem is that tax collection also happens with congressional approval.

inglor_cz 1y ago

This seems to be a somewhat inefficient system. There is no absolute need to consider aviation fees to be taxes and collect them through a federal agency. Individual airports should be capable of financing their local ATC as they see fit, be it their own airport fees or, IDK, a surcharge on hamburgers sold in the local McD or a gift from a wealthy sponsor; and they should only have a duty to maintain certain technical standards.

estearum 1y ago
Are you certain maintaining those technical standards would be much more efficient than the current system?
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  Certain is a strong word, but in many other contexts, this is the actually used system, even in aviation. The FAA requires certain standards of maintenance for aircraft, for example, but individual mechanics aren't FAA employees.
  - estearum 1y ago
    Yeah, maintenance seems extremely different from ATC though. Defining and enforcing maintenance standards is trivial and happens well outside the second-to-second operational loop of aircraft actually coordinating.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  Considering the FAA has been fucking around for decades attempting to recapitalize and modernize the ATC network -- yes. See: https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-108162 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-108162 And I do not use "fucking around" lightly. The FAA's repeatedly delayed and ineffective upgrade effort makes even the original healthcare.gov look like the Apollo program.
throwaway173738 1y ago
There’s a whole network of radars and communication centers that are not part of any specific airport. How would you fund that through use fees at an airport?
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  A common fund?
  - bobthepanda 1y ago
    That's what we have today. In the US system, any revenue collection needs to be authorized by Congress. In fact, it is one of the arguments currently being argued in front of the Supreme Court about the tariffs.
- philipwhiuk 1y ago
  You could do airspace overflight fees similar to how it works when you overfly other countries. It would make routing a tonne more complex tho
  - inglor_cz 1y ago
    On the other hand, if the fees corresponded to actual use, that would mean that the infrastructure along the most frequented corridors would automatically be the best funded one, which would probably be overall positive.
    - ryandrake 1y ago
      For VFR flights, communication with ATC is optional until/unless you get into busy Class D or better airspace. If the fees are paid by any pilot passing through the ARTCC's zone, regardless of whether they use ATC, then it wouldn't be fair for the single engine piper putzing around over his backyard. If the fees are paid by only pilots who use ATC, then pilots will stop voluntarily using ATC, leading to decreased overall safety.
  - 1y ago
themafia 1y ago
> no absolute need to consider aviation fees to be taxes and collect them through a federal agency. What if you collect too much? The fund is subject to appropriations. > financing their local ATC as they see fit We already use mileage based overflight fees: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overflight_fees https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overf...
- throw0101a 1y ago
  > What if you collect too much? You lower fees the next year.
  - themafia 1y ago
    Then if you collect too little? Where does the excess come from? Do you keep the fees high and pay that back next year? Do you account for inflation or charge points? Is there some reason you _don't_ want this system to have slightly more funding than it "needs?"
    - throw0101a 1y ago
      Nav Canada, the non-profit which runs Canada's ATC, charges user fees which they adjust every so often, but they also have buffer/contingency funds. Quarterly/annual financial reports are available at their site: * https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/investor-relations/financial-information.aspx https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/investor-relations/fin... * https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/service-charges.aspx https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/service-charges.aspx
      - bobthepanda 1y ago
        It is worth noting that Nav Canada also has controller shortages. Privatization is not really correlated with with better outcomes for ATC. https://globalnews.ca/news/11354998/air-traffic-controller-shortages-airport-delays/ https://globalnews.ca/news/11354998/air-traffic-controller-s...
cameldrv 1y ago
It's a perfectly fine system. It just relies on our elected representatives not playing a game of chicken to get what they want, and act in the best interests of the country. Unfortunately, for a whole lot of reasons, they haven't been able to do this intermittently since the mid nineties.