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While any particular individual isn't "owed a job", it must be true that people as a whole are "owed" jobs and that if governments are incapable or unwilling to

While any particular individual isn't "owed a job", it must be true that people as a whole are "owed" jobs and that if governments are incapable or unwilling to foster the economic environment that makes it possible for all working-age people to get jobs, then those governments are invalid. And, as much as we might want to deny it we do live in an era where it seems that maybe the economic environment does not provide enough jobs for the entirety of the population. Glibly saying "you're not owed a job" might not be strictly false, but it's certainly misleading and out of touch.

fastball 1y ago
No, people as a whole are obviously not "owed" jobs. Why would you be owed a job?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  Yes, they are owed these jobs. But even if you reject that, the practical argument is that if we conduct society/civilization in a manner in which there are not enough jobs to go around, then they have no disincentive from burning it all down with the rest of us chained inside the building. This is the price of us building our civilization such that we left nothing for anyone to live without civilization... everyone has to get a livelihood or at least the potential for one, and we refuse to pay that price at our own peril. This should be plainly obvious to anyone who bothers to think about it for even two minutes. I don't claim that they're "owed living wages", or "good jobs" or even "non-awful jobs". All those details can be hashed out later, no need to force them from the top down. But the "everyone working age gets a job if they want it" is extraordinarily non-negotiable.
  - fastball 1y ago
    So your argument is: people will get mad if we don't bequeath them employment. That's it? What if they get mad because their wages aren't living wages? What then? Why shouldn't they be owed living wages or owed non-awful jobs? Jobs do not grow on trees. They are not harvested from the ether. It is the responsibility of every individual to provide for their own needs. If that requires getting a job, so be it. But you can also create your own job(s). There is more than enough opportunity for every working age person to provide for the needs of others and get provision in return. That is what civilization should be ensuring, not pre-packaged "jobs".

fastball 1y ago

No, people as a whole are obviously not "owed" jobs. Why would you be owed a job?

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
Yes, they are owed these jobs. But even if you reject that, the practical argument is that if we conduct society/civilization in a manner in which there are not enough jobs to go around, then they have no disincentive from burning it all down with the rest of us chained inside the building. This is the price of us building our civilization such that we left nothing for anyone to live without civilization... everyone has to get a livelihood or at least the potential for one, and we refuse to pay that price at our own peril. This should be plainly obvious to anyone who bothers to think about it for even two minutes. I don't claim that they're "owed living wages", or "good jobs" or even "non-awful jobs". All those details can be hashed out later, no need to force them from the top down. But the "everyone working age gets a job if they want it" is extraordinarily non-negotiable.
- fastball 1y ago
  So your argument is: people will get mad if we don't bequeath them employment. That's it? What if they get mad because their wages aren't living wages? What then? Why shouldn't they be owed living wages or owed non-awful jobs? Jobs do not grow on trees. They are not harvested from the ether. It is the responsibility of every individual to provide for their own needs. If that requires getting a job, so be it. But you can also create your own job(s). There is more than enough opportunity for every working age person to provide for the needs of others and get provision in return. That is what civilization should be ensuring, not pre-packaged "jobs".