4 ms·

> I don't think anyone is meaningfully harmed by being algorithmically shown job ads stereotypical of one gender rather than another If you show me a lower pay

> I don't think anyone is meaningfully harmed by being algorithmically shown job ads stereotypical of one gender rather than another If you show me a lower paying girl job instead of a higher paying boy job, and I apply for and get the girl job, how is the company tricking me into applying for the lower paying job based on my gender not a problem to you? How was I not harmed by having a better opportunity hidden from me based on my presumed gender?

seneca 11mo ago
> If you show me a lower paying girl job instead of a higher paying boy job, and I apply for and get the girl job, how is the company tricking me into applying for the lower paying job based on my gender not a problem to you? How as I not harmed by having a better opportunity hidden from me based on my presumed gender? Not highlighting something to you is not the same as hiding it from you. If you want a job atypical of your demographic, you have the ability to look it up and apply for it. The fact that you might not do that does not justify forcing people to do dramatically less efficient advertising by knowingly including cohorts unlikely to engage with what they're offering.
- ivan_gammel 11mo ago
  The most efficient advertising of jobs is not gender-based, it’s skill-based. Ideally you need to show your ads to candidates with exact match to job description and then some more if the pool is too small. It has nothing to do with gender.
  - seneca 11mo ago
    The most efficient advertisement for a job would be to only advertise it to the single candidate who is the best fit for your profile, is looking for a job, and would accept the salary you're offering. Unfortunately intimately detailed profiles like that aren't available, so we target cohorts with the coarse details we do have such as age and gender.
    - IanCal 11mo ago
      And targeting specific ages and genders without having a good reason why those are required attributes for the job is going to be more of an issue when it comes to discrimination cases.
    - ivan_gammel 11mo ago
      It’s the same as saying: we don’t have other opportunities to earn money, so we are going to sell drugs. If you cannot advertise without breaking the law, do not advertise. There are plenty of other platforms which do it right.
- standardUser 11mo ago
  You seem to be suggesting that companies should be allowed to trick us so long as there is some conceivable amount of work we can do individually to uncover the trick. But because society exists for people and not companies, most of us prefer laws that stop companies from tricking us in the first place.
  - seneca 11mo ago
    Advertising or not advertising jobs to people is not "tricking" them. This is a childish argument.
    - standardUser 11mo ago
      The Netherlands Institute for Human Rights thinks it makes perfect sense. RTFA
      - hunterpayne 11mo ago
        You do realize that the people who work there are economically incentivized to think that? In exactly the same way that Uncle Bob (who has never been a coder) is economically incentivized to talk about clean code or a salesperson is incentivized to talk about the product they are selling.
        ivan_gammel 11mo ago
        Mathematicians who are paid for their research are incentivized to prove theorems. It doesn’t make their proofs wrong.
        hunterpayne 11mo ago
        The reason we think their proofs are correct is that other mathematicians without incentives say they are correct. Also, they show their work. By your logic, we should believe everything any salesperson says.
fastball 11mo ago
You are not owed either job. Getting a high-paying "boy job" is your own responsibility if you want one.
- standardUser 11mo ago
  Who said anyone was owed a job? The problem is that hiding listings from people based on their gender obviously impacts who gets what jobs.
  - fastball 11mo ago
    Nobody is hiding anything. But the point about not being owed a job is that even if they were "hiding" something, that wouldn't be a problem. You are not owed visibility of a job in the same way you are not owed the job itself.
    - ivan_gammel 11mo ago
      This is not true, at least in Europe. There exists well-established anti-discriminatory law, which dictates equal opportunity in employment. When targeted advertising is based only on demographic signals, it creates strong information asymmetry. Let’s say someone is not actively looking for a job, but gets information about new opportunities through ads more frequently, than someone else with same skills but different gender or background. When this happens at scale, the people like the first person will have more upward mobility than second group. Or the second group has to invest considerably more resources to find a better job. This is classic discrimination.
      - rpdillon 11mo ago
        > invest considerably more resources Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we just talking about going to a job board and searching for the job you're interested in?
        ivan_gammel 11mo ago
JuniperMesos 11mo ago
Maybe the actual reason you are applying for and getting a lower paying girl job is because you lack the initiative to try to get a higher paying job yourself and instead are blindly making life decisions based on what ads in media you happen to encounter, and then blame this on some company tricking you.
- youoy 11mo ago
  Ahh nothing better than seeing someone on the wild thinking that their life decisions are 100% independent from their environment. Enjoy your false sense of freedom while you can!

seneca 11mo ago

> If you show me a lower paying girl job instead of a higher paying boy job, and I apply for and get the girl job, how is the company tricking me into applying for the lower paying job based on my gender not a problem to you? How as I not harmed by having a better opportunity hidden from me based on my presumed gender? Not highlighting something to you is not the same as hiding it from you. If you want a job atypical of your demographic, you have the ability to look it up and apply for it. The fact that you might not do that does not justify forcing people to do dramatically less efficient advertising by knowingly including cohorts unlikely to engage with what they're offering.

ivan_gammel 11mo ago
The most efficient advertising of jobs is not gender-based, it’s skill-based. Ideally you need to show your ads to candidates with exact match to job description and then some more if the pool is too small. It has nothing to do with gender.
- seneca 11mo ago
  The most efficient advertisement for a job would be to only advertise it to the single candidate who is the best fit for your profile, is looking for a job, and would accept the salary you're offering. Unfortunately intimately detailed profiles like that aren't available, so we target cohorts with the coarse details we do have such as age and gender.
  - IanCal 11mo ago
    And targeting specific ages and genders without having a good reason why those are required attributes for the job is going to be more of an issue when it comes to discrimination cases.
  - ivan_gammel 11mo ago
    It’s the same as saying: we don’t have other opportunities to earn money, so we are going to sell drugs. If you cannot advertise without breaking the law, do not advertise. There are plenty of other platforms which do it right.
standardUser 11mo ago
You seem to be suggesting that companies should be allowed to trick us so long as there is some conceivable amount of work we can do individually to uncover the trick. But because society exists for people and not companies, most of us prefer laws that stop companies from tricking us in the first place.
- seneca 11mo ago
  Advertising or not advertising jobs to people is not "tricking" them. This is a childish argument.
  - standardUser 11mo ago
    The Netherlands Institute for Human Rights thinks it makes perfect sense. RTFA
    - hunterpayne 11mo ago
      You do realize that the people who work there are economically incentivized to think that? In exactly the same way that Uncle Bob (who has never been a coder) is economically incentivized to talk about clean code or a salesperson is incentivized to talk about the product they are selling.
      - ivan_gammel 11mo ago
        Mathematicians who are paid for their research are incentivized to prove theorems. It doesn’t make their proofs wrong.
        hunterpayne 11mo ago
        The reason we think their proofs are correct is that other mathematicians without incentives say they are correct. Also, they show their work. By your logic, we should believe everything any salesperson says.

fastball 11mo ago

You are not owed either job. Getting a high-paying "boy job" is your own responsibility if you want one.

standardUser 11mo ago
Who said anyone was owed a job? The problem is that hiding listings from people based on their gender obviously impacts who gets what jobs.
- fastball 11mo ago
  Nobody is hiding anything. But the point about not being owed a job is that even if they were "hiding" something, that wouldn't be a problem. You are not owed visibility of a job in the same way you are not owed the job itself.
  - ivan_gammel 11mo ago
    This is not true, at least in Europe. There exists well-established anti-discriminatory law, which dictates equal opportunity in employment. When targeted advertising is based only on demographic signals, it creates strong information asymmetry. Let’s say someone is not actively looking for a job, but gets information about new opportunities through ads more frequently, than someone else with same skills but different gender or background. When this happens at scale, the people like the first person will have more upward mobility than second group. Or the second group has to invest considerably more resources to find a better job. This is classic discrimination.
    - rpdillon 11mo ago
      > invest considerably more resources Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we just talking about going to a job board and searching for the job you're interested in?
      - ivan_gammel 11mo ago

JuniperMesos 11mo ago

Maybe the actual reason you are applying for and getting a lower paying girl job is because you lack the initiative to try to get a higher paying job yourself and instead are blindly making life decisions based on what ads in media you happen to encounter, and then blame this on some company tricking you.

youoy 11mo ago
Ahh nothing better than seeing someone on the wild thinking that their life decisions are 100% independent from their environment. Enjoy your false sense of freedom while you can!