3 ms·

But isn't this true? Asians are proven to have the highest IQ

krapp 1y ago
No. Race isn't biological, it's a social and political construct. The social and political construct known as "Asians" comprises about 60% of the global population. Also, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. There are cultural reasons why some people in some "Asian" countries may do better on average in academics, such as stronger familial bonds, peer pressure and a greater cultural value placed on scholastic achievement, but that's far from proof that "Asians" are genetically and intellectually superior to other races, much less that therefore eugenics (and by extension the white supremacist ideology it was created to normalize, which ironically considered "Asians" to be subhuman) is "proven true."
- terminalshort 1y ago
  If it was a cultural thing it would be a multi modal distribution.
- sparkie 1y ago
  It's most likely a combination of both genetics and society - neither are absolutes. There is no concrete evidence that intelligence is purely a social construct, nor that it is genetic. We simply don't know. People get cancelled not for saying that it is genetic, but for questioning whether it may be. Of course, we will never know if we're not allowed to ask. Cancel culture is anti-science. Watson may have been racist, but questioning whether there is a relationship between genetics and intelligence by itself is not racism.
  - krapp 1y ago
    We are allowed to ask this question, and we have asked it, and we've found that the evidence does not validate the premise of inherent racial intelligence or other racial essentialist views[0]. Claims like "Asians have the highest IQ" are not meaningful or scientifically valid. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Research_into_possible_genetic_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Research...
    - JuniperMesos 1y ago
      This (https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171) US-government provided table of average SAT scores in the United States in 2023, which has breakdowns by race/ethnicity of the test-taker, and clearly shows Asians with the highest average score out of any of the racial categories in the chart, is evidence for something that you could pithily summarize as "Asians have the highest IQ". The relationship between SAT scores and IQ and intelligence in an everyday sense; and how representative people whose racial categorization went into this chart are of everyone on the planet who could also be grouped into that racial category; are more complicated questions. Nonetheless, the hypothesis that there are genetic differences between people of different racial groups that affect their intelligence in a similar way to how they affect more obvious racial correlates such as hair and skin color, is not obviously wrong.
      - zimpenfish 1y ago
        > This US-government provided table of average SAT scores in the United States in 2023 If you look at their source[0], there's no information about how they controlled for confounders (because it's impossible as they acknowledge[1].) There's a strong correlation between "education of parents" and "SAT score"[2] which implies that family wealth is a strong contribution to a child's SAT score (something we all know anyway); that's also backed up by [3]. (I'd suggest that [4] also contributes to the positive correlation between familial wealth and test scores but perhaps in a more oblique "the higher goals are aimed at by kids who have the backing to contemplate them because of family support structure, tutoring, ability to pay for the degree(s), etc." way.) (Similarly for [5], I suppose - there's a distinct correlation between what I'd say was "perceived difficulty of major" and the mean SAT scores. Again probably down to familial wealth, support, tutoring, etc.) Someone who's an actual statistician would probably rip this apart much more thoroughly and with more rigour than I, of course. [0] https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2023-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report%20ADA.pdf https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2023-total-group-... [1] "Relationships between test scores and other background or Evidence-Based Reading and Writing (ERW) and Math contextual factors are complex and interdependent. Caution is sections of each assessment in the SAT Suite: warranted when using scores to compare or evaluate teachers, schools, districts, or states, because of differences in participation and test taker populations." [2] Bottom of page 4: "Highest Level of Parental Education" [3] Bottom of page 5: "Median Family Income" [4] Bottom of page 8: "Degree-Level Goal" [5] Top of page 8: "Intended College Major"
  - balamatom 1y ago
    >There is no concrete evidence that intelligence is purely a social construct, nor that it is genetic. There isn't even any concrete evidence that it's a good thing.
    - pfdietz 1y ago
      Intelligence has a significant genetic component, otherwise it couldn't have evolved. "Intelligence isn't genetic" is the left's version of creationism.
      - krapp 1y ago
        No one is claiming that intelligence isn't genetic. Certainly not "the left." The claim is that race as commonly understood and defined (specifically by eugenicists like Watson) has no genetic basis, and therefore claims which follow from that definition such as "Asians have higher IQ" are not scientifically valid, and do not prove the validity of Watson's racial views. For some reason sparkie just decided to reframe my comment around a claim I didn't make and now here we are litigating a "leftist" strawman. I'm so tired.
prmph 1y ago
I thought we were beyond this argument, no? There are so many things with all the implications here it's hard to know where to start. You do realize that picking a certain concept "intelligence", defining it to include certain characteristics, tying it to a certain notion of "fitness", defining "Asian", and finally, tying "asian" to "intelligence", are all matters of definition, choice, and perception and nothing fundamental about reality, right?

No. Race isn't biological, it's a social and political construct. The social and political construct known as "Asians" comprises about 60% of the global population. Also, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. There are cultural reasons why some people in some "Asian" countries may do better on average in academics, such as stronger familial bonds, peer pressure and a greater cultural value placed on scholastic achievement, but that's far from proof that "Asians" are genetically and intellectually superior to other races, much less that therefore eugenics (and by extension the white supremacist ideology it was created to normalize, which ironically considered "Asians" to be subhuman) is "proven true."

terminalshort 1y ago
If it was a cultural thing it would be a multi modal distribution.
sparkie 1y ago
It's most likely a combination of both genetics and society - neither are absolutes. There is no concrete evidence that intelligence is purely a social construct, nor that it is genetic. We simply don't know. People get cancelled not for saying that it is genetic, but for questioning whether it may be. Of course, we will never know if we're not allowed to ask. Cancel culture is anti-science. Watson may have been racist, but questioning whether there is a relationship between genetics and intelligence by itself is not racism.
- krapp 1y ago
  We are allowed to ask this question, and we have asked it, and we've found that the evidence does not validate the premise of inherent racial intelligence or other racial essentialist views[0]. Claims like "Asians have the highest IQ" are not meaningful or scientifically valid. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Research_into_possible_genetic_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Research...
  - JuniperMesos 1y ago
    This (https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171) US-government provided table of average SAT scores in the United States in 2023, which has breakdowns by race/ethnicity of the test-taker, and clearly shows Asians with the highest average score out of any of the racial categories in the chart, is evidence for something that you could pithily summarize as "Asians have the highest IQ". The relationship between SAT scores and IQ and intelligence in an everyday sense; and how representative people whose racial categorization went into this chart are of everyone on the planet who could also be grouped into that racial category; are more complicated questions. Nonetheless, the hypothesis that there are genetic differences between people of different racial groups that affect their intelligence in a similar way to how they affect more obvious racial correlates such as hair and skin color, is not obviously wrong.
    - zimpenfish 1y ago
      > This US-government provided table of average SAT scores in the United States in 2023 If you look at their source[0], there's no information about how they controlled for confounders (because it's impossible as they acknowledge[1].) There's a strong correlation between "education of parents" and "SAT score"[2] which implies that family wealth is a strong contribution to a child's SAT score (something we all know anyway); that's also backed up by [3]. (I'd suggest that [4] also contributes to the positive correlation between familial wealth and test scores but perhaps in a more oblique "the higher goals are aimed at by kids who have the backing to contemplate them because of family support structure, tutoring, ability to pay for the degree(s), etc." way.) (Similarly for [5], I suppose - there's a distinct correlation between what I'd say was "perceived difficulty of major" and the mean SAT scores. Again probably down to familial wealth, support, tutoring, etc.) Someone who's an actual statistician would probably rip this apart much more thoroughly and with more rigour than I, of course. [0] https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2023-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report%20ADA.pdf https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2023-total-group-... [1] "Relationships between test scores and other background or Evidence-Based Reading and Writing (ERW) and Math contextual factors are complex and interdependent. Caution is sections of each assessment in the SAT Suite: warranted when using scores to compare or evaluate teachers, schools, districts, or states, because of differences in participation and test taker populations." [2] Bottom of page 4: "Highest Level of Parental Education" [3] Bottom of page 5: "Median Family Income" [4] Bottom of page 8: "Degree-Level Goal" [5] Top of page 8: "Intended College Major"
- balamatom 1y ago
  >There is no concrete evidence that intelligence is purely a social construct, nor that it is genetic. There isn't even any concrete evidence that it's a good thing.
  - pfdietz 1y ago
    Intelligence has a significant genetic component, otherwise it couldn't have evolved. "Intelligence isn't genetic" is the left's version of creationism.
    - krapp 1y ago
      No one is claiming that intelligence isn't genetic. Certainly not "the left." The claim is that race as commonly understood and defined (specifically by eugenicists like Watson) has no genetic basis, and therefore claims which follow from that definition such as "Asians have higher IQ" are not scientifically valid, and do not prove the validity of Watson's racial views. For some reason sparkie just decided to reframe my comment around a claim I didn't make and now here we are litigating a "leftist" strawman. I'm so tired.

prmph 1y ago

I thought we were beyond this argument, no? There are so many things with all the implications here it's hard to know where to start. You do realize that picking a certain concept "intelligence", defining it to include certain characteristics, tying it to a certain notion of "fitness", defining "Asian", and finally, tying "asian" to "intelligence", are all matters of definition, choice, and perception and nothing fundamental about reality, right?