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Ok! Happier is a fine place to be. They are both still too high. Not everything has to be binary -- I can think Valve is offering some utility and also think t

Ok! Happier is a fine place to be. They are both still too high. Not everything has to be binary -- I can think Valve is offering some utility and also think that Valve is charging too much for that utility. The fact that Gabe has a billion dollars worth of yachts probably suggests that maybe, just maaaaaybe, that 30% could be lower and Steam could still provide you the same level of marketing support and player base.

bigyabai 11mo ago
> They are both still too high. You don't get to decide that. Apple's price is not set by free market competition, Valve's is.
- ceejayoz 11mo ago
  Apple's price definitely gets affected by competition. https://9to5mac.com/2025/05/19/apple-may-lower-app-store-commission-report/ https://9to5mac.com/2025/05/19/apple-may-lower-app-store-com... https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-store-small-business-program/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-s...
  - bigyabai 11mo ago
    I didn't say "affected" though, I said set. Valve plays by common rules, Apple does not.
    - ceejayoz 11mo ago
      This is an odd attempt at a gotcha. Neither Valve nor Apple has their cut “set” by the market. Both are “affected” by market influences.
- rcxdude 11mo ago
  Valve's price is still very strongly predicated on network effects which make it very hard to avoid.
  - DaSHacka 11mo ago
    Almost like they make the best game distribution platform around for customers, and thus customers flock to it.
  - jsheard 11mo ago
    Indeed, when big publishers like EA and Ubisoft started leaving Steam they introduced a tiered pricing system which progressively reduces the cut to 25% or 20% after tens of millions of dollars in revenue, to lure those AAA juggernauts back. The price is now indirectly based on how much leverage you have over Valve - Ubisoft can get away with not releasing their games on Steam, so they pay 20%, while small-to-medium studios effectively have no choice, so they pay 30%. It's especially backwards when you consider that those AAA games put far more strain on Steams infrastructure with their >150GB install sizes.
  - mrguyorama 11mo ago
    What? What network effects? There are even games you can buy on one service and play multiplayer with people who buy it on steam! I chose to buy MSFS2020 through steam for example because the steam platform is dramatically better than the absurd way the Windows Store does anything, but we fly in the same skies! There's no lock in or exclusivity. You can literally buy the same exact executable from multiple places, and the only change is the feature the store program supports. Buying a game through the Epic Store for example won't let you use steam input, but you can even then play it on the steam deck with some effort! I think you can even use Proton on executables you don't get through steam! A dev can even make it so that, if you buy their game on steam, you do not have to have steam running or installed to play it. They have that freedom. They also have the freedom to mark a version of the game such that steam allows you to access that old version forever If you are a dev who releases a game on steam, you can mint a bulk quantity of steam keys and sell or distribute those outside of steam!. Probably if you abused it, Valve would tighten it up or ban you, but why would you bite the hand that feeds you? It's how, for example, Humble Bundle initially worked. That's right, you don't even need to buy your game from Valve to use all their features! A substantial portion of my library paid money to Amazon instead, through humble bundle. People use Steam because it has 20 years of established trustworthiness in an industry otherwise made up entirely of assholes who hate you. Meanwhile, in the place that Steam does poorly: Old games, GOG has much more of the market. People actually are willing to pay for trust and care. Steam has repeatedly and regularly improved how their storefront displays information and informs consumers, because their primary problem is discoverability and wading through the mountains of games from people desperate to collect some of the money waterfall that Valve enables. When you put a game on Steam, the contract ensures that anyone who purchases it cannot lose access without it being Valve's decision. Developers or publishers who do stupid things or pull games five years down the line cannot prevent you from playing a game you buy on steam if it isn't dependent on some server somewhere. None of the other storefronts have ANYTHING like this, mostly because they are run by the exact companies who WANT to be able to prevent you from ever playing an old game again, so they can sell the same thing to you in a new box. Compare that to Apple's 30%, which similarly has lots of features their platform enables including unlocking significant consumer spending, but they do not give you any alternative. If you want even a single dollar from someone on an iPhone, you HAVE to pay apple 30%, and at least for a while they wanted that even to cover netflix subscriptions for example. If you as a developer do not want to pay valve 30%, you are free to do like Notch did for Minecraft and distribute it yourself, and you are free to run into the same problem it had where my friend was unable to purchase minecraft for decades because his bank refused to send money to the Scandinavian bank involved, whereas even a literal child without a debit card can use birthday money to buy a steam gift card and purchase your game with no adult involvement. (maybe that's not a good thing for society, but it's great for game dev business). Valve does not have a moat other than simply consumer trust. Minecraft sold a hundred million copies through a dude's website. There has literally never been a moat in computer game distribution. An entire industry of British children existed writing games and selling them in local stores. A moat has never been possible, because Valve cannot make your computer not run other software.
Whoppertime 11mo ago
The only reason EpicGameStore was able to rise as a competitor to Steam was because of the Billions Fortnite was earning.
- mathgeek 11mo ago
  Pretty much. If it weren’t for free games and exclusives there would be no Epic Store to speak of.
  - worldfoodgood 11mo ago
    I don't understand. You think Steam exists without Half Life and Counterstrike?
    - DaSHacka 11mo ago
      Nowadays? Yes
      - worldfoodgood 11mo ago
        Of course now it does, but it was bootstrapped off the back of commercial success. The parent poster was suggesting Epic could only finance a game store off the commercial success of Fortnite. Which seemed to be the exact same path Valve took, so I was curious to explore why the parent felt they were different.
        Ekaros 11mo ago
        Difference is that Valve made a platform to support their own products. And run it fiscally responsibly from start. Where as well Epic is dumping. Trying to gain market share by giving out free stuff and possibly undercharging. Now thinking whole license model for their engine might also be harmful for any bigger competing engines...
    - mathgeek 11mo ago
      I don’t believe what you are asking, nor do I claim to. Claiming one thing does not automatically exclude all other causes.
jhatemyjob 11mo ago
I think Gabe is doing a great job. If he wants to have a billion dollars worth of yachts, that's fine by me.
daedrdev 11mo ago
You can just not sell your game on steam if you dont agree. The sales you will miss are what steam brings to the table
galkk 11mo ago
That’s weird argument. How about letting man to enjoy the fruits of his work?
- worldfoodgood 11mo ago
  That's a weird structuring of the concern. How about letting all developers enjoy the fruits of their work?
  - gretch 11mo ago
    they are free to do that - simply don't sell your game on steam
sumedh 11mo ago
> The fact that Gabe has a billion dollars worth of yachts probably suggests that maybe That is not a good argument though. Try building your own distribution and take some of those billions.
klipklop 11mo ago
Gabe made his initial fortune working at Microsoft. He almost lost it all putting it into Valve/Steam. At one point they were close to not even being able to make payroll. He bet everything on the company. You are welcome to start your own progressive game market place for PC. Go undercut him and charge 5% fees. You literally just need to dump game files on a CDN right? How hard can it be? /s I do find it odd that this account is new and the type of posts it leaves. Seems almost like an LLM...

bigyabai 11mo ago

> They are both still too high. You don't get to decide that. Apple's price is not set by free market competition, Valve's is.

ceejayoz 11mo ago
Apple's price definitely gets affected by competition. https://9to5mac.com/2025/05/19/apple-may-lower-app-store-commission-report/ https://9to5mac.com/2025/05/19/apple-may-lower-app-store-com... https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-store-small-business-program/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-s...
- bigyabai 11mo ago
  I didn't say "affected" though, I said set. Valve plays by common rules, Apple does not.
  - ceejayoz 11mo ago
    This is an odd attempt at a gotcha. Neither Valve nor Apple has their cut “set” by the market. Both are “affected” by market influences.
rcxdude 11mo ago
Valve's price is still very strongly predicated on network effects which make it very hard to avoid.
- DaSHacka 11mo ago
  Almost like they make the best game distribution platform around for customers, and thus customers flock to it.
- jsheard 11mo ago
  Indeed, when big publishers like EA and Ubisoft started leaving Steam they introduced a tiered pricing system which progressively reduces the cut to 25% or 20% after tens of millions of dollars in revenue, to lure those AAA juggernauts back. The price is now indirectly based on how much leverage you have over Valve - Ubisoft can get away with not releasing their games on Steam, so they pay 20%, while small-to-medium studios effectively have no choice, so they pay 30%. It's especially backwards when you consider that those AAA games put far more strain on Steams infrastructure with their >150GB install sizes.
- mrguyorama 11mo ago
  What? What network effects? There are even games you can buy on one service and play multiplayer with people who buy it on steam! I chose to buy MSFS2020 through steam for example because the steam platform is dramatically better than the absurd way the Windows Store does anything, but we fly in the same skies! There's no lock in or exclusivity. You can literally buy the same exact executable from multiple places, and the only change is the feature the store program supports. Buying a game through the Epic Store for example won't let you use steam input, but you can even then play it on the steam deck with some effort! I think you can even use Proton on executables you don't get through steam! A dev can even make it so that, if you buy their game on steam, you do not have to have steam running or installed to play it. They have that freedom. They also have the freedom to mark a version of the game such that steam allows you to access that old version forever If you are a dev who releases a game on steam, you can mint a bulk quantity of steam keys and sell or distribute those outside of steam!. Probably if you abused it, Valve would tighten it up or ban you, but why would you bite the hand that feeds you? It's how, for example, Humble Bundle initially worked. That's right, you don't even need to buy your game from Valve to use all their features! A substantial portion of my library paid money to Amazon instead, through humble bundle. People use Steam because it has 20 years of established trustworthiness in an industry otherwise made up entirely of assholes who hate you. Meanwhile, in the place that Steam does poorly: Old games, GOG has much more of the market. People actually are willing to pay for trust and care. Steam has repeatedly and regularly improved how their storefront displays information and informs consumers, because their primary problem is discoverability and wading through the mountains of games from people desperate to collect some of the money waterfall that Valve enables. When you put a game on Steam, the contract ensures that anyone who purchases it cannot lose access without it being Valve's decision. Developers or publishers who do stupid things or pull games five years down the line cannot prevent you from playing a game you buy on steam if it isn't dependent on some server somewhere. None of the other storefronts have ANYTHING like this, mostly because they are run by the exact companies who WANT to be able to prevent you from ever playing an old game again, so they can sell the same thing to you in a new box. Compare that to Apple's 30%, which similarly has lots of features their platform enables including unlocking significant consumer spending, but they do not give you any alternative. If you want even a single dollar from someone on an iPhone, you HAVE to pay apple 30%, and at least for a while they wanted that even to cover netflix subscriptions for example. If you as a developer do not want to pay valve 30%, you are free to do like Notch did for Minecraft and distribute it yourself, and you are free to run into the same problem it had where my friend was unable to purchase minecraft for decades because his bank refused to send money to the Scandinavian bank involved, whereas even a literal child without a debit card can use birthday money to buy a steam gift card and purchase your game with no adult involvement. (maybe that's not a good thing for society, but it's great for game dev business). Valve does not have a moat other than simply consumer trust. Minecraft sold a hundred million copies through a dude's website. There has literally never been a moat in computer game distribution. An entire industry of British children existed writing games and selling them in local stores. A moat has never been possible, because Valve cannot make your computer not run other software.

Whoppertime 11mo ago

The only reason EpicGameStore was able to rise as a competitor to Steam was because of the Billions Fortnite was earning.

mathgeek 11mo ago
Pretty much. If it weren’t for free games and exclusives there would be no Epic Store to speak of.
- worldfoodgood 11mo ago
  I don't understand. You think Steam exists without Half Life and Counterstrike?
  - DaSHacka 11mo ago
    Nowadays? Yes
    - worldfoodgood 11mo ago
      Of course now it does, but it was bootstrapped off the back of commercial success. The parent poster was suggesting Epic could only finance a game store off the commercial success of Fortnite. Which seemed to be the exact same path Valve took, so I was curious to explore why the parent felt they were different.
      - Ekaros 11mo ago
        Difference is that Valve made a platform to support their own products. And run it fiscally responsibly from start. Where as well Epic is dumping. Trying to gain market share by giving out free stuff and possibly undercharging. Now thinking whole license model for their engine might also be harmful for any bigger competing engines...
  - mathgeek 11mo ago
    I don’t believe what you are asking, nor do I claim to. Claiming one thing does not automatically exclude all other causes.

jhatemyjob 11mo ago

I think Gabe is doing a great job. If he wants to have a billion dollars worth of yachts, that's fine by me.

daedrdev 11mo ago

You can just not sell your game on steam if you dont agree. The sales you will miss are what steam brings to the table

galkk 11mo ago

That’s weird argument. How about letting man to enjoy the fruits of his work?

worldfoodgood 11mo ago
That's a weird structuring of the concern. How about letting all developers enjoy the fruits of their work?
- gretch 11mo ago
  they are free to do that - simply don't sell your game on steam

sumedh 11mo ago

> The fact that Gabe has a billion dollars worth of yachts probably suggests that maybe That is not a good argument though. Try building your own distribution and take some of those billions.

klipklop 11mo ago

Gabe made his initial fortune working at Microsoft. He almost lost it all putting it into Valve/Steam. At one point they were close to not even being able to make payroll. He bet everything on the company. You are welcome to start your own progressive game market place for PC. Go undercut him and charge 5% fees. You literally just need to dump game files on a CDN right? How hard can it be? /s I do find it odd that this account is new and the type of posts it leaves. Seems almost like an LLM...