5 ms·

It sounds extreme, but I support banning usage of anything that runs software for children under 13. Under 13, children are still developing their minds, it is

It sounds extreme, but I support banning usage of anything that runs software for children under 13. Under 13, children are still developing their minds, it is important for their welfare that they learn how to function without technological dependencies. You know how in school they used to tell us we can't use calculators to solve math problems? Same thing. It can't be done by individual parents either, because then kids would get envious and that in itself would cause more problems than it would solve. It is important for kids to get bored, to socialize in person, to solve problems the hard way, and develop the mental-muscles they need to not only function, but to make best use of modern technology. It is also important that parents don't use technology to raise their children (includes TV). Most parents just give their kids a tablet with youtube these days.

ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
I was learning to program at age 11. This does indeed sound extreme.
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  Would it have made a big difference if you learned to code at 13? Is there a pressing need as to why kids need to code at a young age? Maybe there could be exceptions for children that develop sooner? If your other developmental metrics were met early on, I don't see why an earlier age would be a problem.
  - QuadmasterXLII 1y ago
    I strongly suspect the network connection is the issue, not the software. Let the kids have graphing calculators!
    - znpy 1y ago
      I generally agree. But so much software today is useless without a network connection. Online help (anybody remember those chm files?) was often very very good, because it was supposed to be _the_ documentation for most software.
      - BeFlatXIII 1y ago
        May these regulations encourage a RETVRN to local-first software.
  - ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
    I don't know, maybe? Maybe it's not up to the state to decide whether my kids developmental metrics allows them screen time before age 13? What kind of nanny state is that?
    - notepad0x90 1y ago
      I don't think that's a nanny state. you can't give your kid alcohol for example at that age, let them drive, get married (don't get me started on some countries!), operate a chainsaw or other dangerous machinery. This is a danger to their mental development. Look at teacher forums all over. r/Teachers on reddit should be illuminating. Tech and parents sticking devices to their kids instead of raising them properly has resulted in utter disaster. If there was no harm imposed on children, I would agree that it is a nanny-state thing.
      - card_zero 1y ago
        [flagged]
        notepad0x90 1y ago
        I'm pretty sure that type of engagement is against HN rules.
      - ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
        My kids (6 and 8) are pretty well raised I'd say, but they do have access to a Playstation and a PC, with clear rules and time limits for use. They are good at making friends and don't do trouble in school, and they also have healthy interests other than playing video games. This is because we actively raise them so they can learn to adjust their needs and interact with others, not because we limit their screen time. The problem today is that many parents seemingly does not raise their kids well, maybe because they don't spend enough time together, perhaps because the parents themselves spend their time scrolling reels. I myself grew up with a desktop computer from around age 7 and it shaped me early on in a positive way to be curious. Computers were also a central part of my social life. There are many positive things that kids can get out of computers, so I find the comparison with alcohol to be hyperbolic.
  - makeitdouble 1y ago
    > Would it have made a big difference if you learned X at 13? Yes. Kids getting access to knowledge that clicks with them earlier than later makes a huge difference. Which is exactly why so many people are rushing in to control what kids get exposed to. You seem to have pretty strong thought on the issue yourself, if you agree on the possible negative impact, you can't also deny the possibility of positive impact. The dose makes the poison, I think we can understand how extreme position tend to bring more negative than positive consequences, regardless of the rethoric. [edit: rephrased the last part]
amiga386 1y ago
I was programming age 5 in BASIC. Raspberry Pis are the modern equivalent and I think every child should have one. > they learn how to function without technological dependencies. So like the Amish? Or are they still too technologically dependent and children need to be banned from pulleys, fulcrums, wheels, etc.?
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  I don't know much about the Amish, so I can't comment. Teaching kids how to code isn't all that meaningful on its own. knowing what to do once you learn how to code is. If your plan is to teach your kid how to code, teach them to solve problems without code at that age. Unless you're serious about thinking learning at age 5 vs age 13 would make a big difference. I think every kid 13 and above should have an rpi too.
  - amiga386 1y ago
    I think you're missing the point. 5 year old me was writing their own computer games and at no point did I need or ask my parents how to do it (though they did buy the computer; thanks mum and dad!), they didn't know. There were a plethora of books in the library on how to program, and here you are suggesting I, and everyone like me, be banned from doing so. You'd probably also ban me from the library by assuming I couldn't read aged 5. I certainly could, especially computer manuals. The computer was an amazing thing which did exactly what I told it, and I learned quickly how precise I needed to tell it, and when I made a mistake, it repeated my mistakes over and over without noticing. I learned more about digital ethics age 5 trying to write games than the typical CEO learns going on a "Do Not Create The Torment Nexus" course. You'd insist I not be allowed to even use software, let alone write my own. You'd be actively cutting off my future professional life, and depriving entire nations of bedroom programmers cum professional software engineers, with your ill-thought-out ban. If your children show an aptitude or a fascination for a topic, I hope you feed that and praise them for it.
    - notepad0x90 1y ago
      I think books are great, provided they're age appropriate. First, my proposal is a delay, not a ban. This is such a good idea, that a lot of FAANG CEO's are doing this for their kids welfare (more or less) already. I think the overall welfare of kids should be weighed against the benefits. I think you should have been learning to tinker with electronics, solve math algorithms and develop all kinds of curiosities. the future of being a programmer involves competing with LLMs, you have to be good at knowing what to program. Humans aren't needed when it comes to simply knowing how to write code. I acknowledge that there will be exceptions, and perhaps that should be considered. but also lookup terms like "ipad babies" and how gen-alpha is turning out. Most parents don't teach their kids how to code in basic. and content regulation for kids is futile, unless you want the government monitoring your devices "for the children's sake". > If your children show an aptitude or a fascination for a topic, I hope you feed that and praise them for it. Same, but I hope you let them learn things in the right order and consider their overall long term wellbeing instead of temporary satisfaction. Children did fine without computers for all of humanity's history. the nature of children hasn't changed in the past 3 decades. What you consider feeding might actually be stagnating. If there is a good and practical way to make sure that children are developed well enough to interact with computers, and we can also make sure that the content they consume is age-appropriate without implementing a dystopian surveillance state, i'm all for it. But pretending the problem doesn't exist, and letting 99% of children suffer because 1% of kids might learn BASIC doesn't sound like a good plan.
tintor 1y ago
This is very extreme take. I learned to program at age 10. It is an amazing tool for mind development. Had to invent sine and cosine tables to make my computer games, before even encountering the concept at school.
- bdangubic 1y ago
  same and about the same age. however, completely different times. I thought about this a lot and have safely concluded that if I was 9-10 years old now programming would quickly turn into gaming and doom scrolling and … given a choice now of not being exposed to it at same age or nothing until say HS I would choose the latter
  - HaZeust 1y ago
    Speaking as someone in their 20s - no, I don't think it's a "completely different time". Just 10 years ago, I first learned programming from scripting languages; SourcePawn from Team Fortress 2, and Lua from Roblox/GMod. Predators, hive minds, and self-destructing behavior from children wasn't suddenly invented or rejuvenated after 2016. All 3 were a total hotbed of bad influences for a child: Team Fortress had trade pub servers with people doing sprays of literal CP and wearing custom lewd skins to harass users with them - and people with very questionable social skills and intentions huddled up in realtime microphone comms with children, Roblox's predator problem for the last 14+ years (at least that I can attest) is suddenly en vogue now that they're a public company and there's stock shorting to be had, GMod is still the community with the most colorful vocabulary I've ever encountered - plus grooming. And much more. Indeed, you can (and I did) get burned by these actualities when exposed to such communities in your youth - and it can cost you real money, real time, real idealism/innocence, and real mental health. However, I think being exposed to softwares, systems and games that inspired curiosity and led me toward a path of WANTING to contribute brought me to this software development career and life path, and it would have been much more inaccessible and unknown to me in any other way. And I favorited a comment from another HN user a few days ago that goes in astute depth on why that path can only be organically introduced and self-governed [1]. I referred to these places earlier in my comment as "bad influences". I think the single-most powerful thing a parent can do tasked with this dilemma - especially during an upbringing in systemically hard, uncertain, and turbulent times - is teaching them how to identify, avoid, and confront bad influences. Equipped with that, and knowing how to handle yourself, is of utmost importance. 1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45718773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45718773
GaryBluto 1y ago
> anything that runs software for children under 13 This is perhaps one of the most bizarre opinions I have ever read. This would bar under 13s from using everything from vending machines to modern fridges. What would you consider "using"? Would under 13s be blocked from riding in any car with "smart" features? This is a perfect example of the kind of nonsensical totalitarian extremism you see on here that people only espouse because they believe it would never affect them. It goes completely against the Hacker ethos.
redleader55 1y ago
I started learning how to use a computer at the age of 10. This is my career today and has been my hobby for the last 35 years. Learning how to use a computer is like learning math, it needs to happen early.

ulrikrasmussen 1y ago

I was learning to program at age 11. This does indeed sound extreme.

notepad0x90 1y ago
Would it have made a big difference if you learned to code at 13? Is there a pressing need as to why kids need to code at a young age? Maybe there could be exceptions for children that develop sooner? If your other developmental metrics were met early on, I don't see why an earlier age would be a problem.
- QuadmasterXLII 1y ago
  I strongly suspect the network connection is the issue, not the software. Let the kids have graphing calculators!
  - znpy 1y ago
    I generally agree. But so much software today is useless without a network connection. Online help (anybody remember those chm files?) was often very very good, because it was supposed to be _the_ documentation for most software.
    - BeFlatXIII 1y ago
      May these regulations encourage a RETVRN to local-first software.
- ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
  I don't know, maybe? Maybe it's not up to the state to decide whether my kids developmental metrics allows them screen time before age 13? What kind of nanny state is that?
  - notepad0x90 1y ago
    I don't think that's a nanny state. you can't give your kid alcohol for example at that age, let them drive, get married (don't get me started on some countries!), operate a chainsaw or other dangerous machinery. This is a danger to their mental development. Look at teacher forums all over. r/Teachers on reddit should be illuminating. Tech and parents sticking devices to their kids instead of raising them properly has resulted in utter disaster. If there was no harm imposed on children, I would agree that it is a nanny-state thing.
    - card_zero 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - notepad0x90 1y ago
        I'm pretty sure that type of engagement is against HN rules.
    - ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
      My kids (6 and 8) are pretty well raised I'd say, but they do have access to a Playstation and a PC, with clear rules and time limits for use. They are good at making friends and don't do trouble in school, and they also have healthy interests other than playing video games. This is because we actively raise them so they can learn to adjust their needs and interact with others, not because we limit their screen time. The problem today is that many parents seemingly does not raise their kids well, maybe because they don't spend enough time together, perhaps because the parents themselves spend their time scrolling reels. I myself grew up with a desktop computer from around age 7 and it shaped me early on in a positive way to be curious. Computers were also a central part of my social life. There are many positive things that kids can get out of computers, so I find the comparison with alcohol to be hyperbolic.
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  > Would it have made a big difference if you learned X at 13? Yes. Kids getting access to knowledge that clicks with them earlier than later makes a huge difference. Which is exactly why so many people are rushing in to control what kids get exposed to. You seem to have pretty strong thought on the issue yourself, if you agree on the possible negative impact, you can't also deny the possibility of positive impact. The dose makes the poison, I think we can understand how extreme position tend to bring more negative than positive consequences, regardless of the rethoric. [edit: rephrased the last part]

amiga386 1y ago

I was programming age 5 in BASIC. Raspberry Pis are the modern equivalent and I think every child should have one. > they learn how to function without technological dependencies. So like the Amish? Or are they still too technologically dependent and children need to be banned from pulleys, fulcrums, wheels, etc.?

notepad0x90 1y ago
I don't know much about the Amish, so I can't comment. Teaching kids how to code isn't all that meaningful on its own. knowing what to do once you learn how to code is. If your plan is to teach your kid how to code, teach them to solve problems without code at that age. Unless you're serious about thinking learning at age 5 vs age 13 would make a big difference. I think every kid 13 and above should have an rpi too.
- amiga386 1y ago
  I think you're missing the point. 5 year old me was writing their own computer games and at no point did I need or ask my parents how to do it (though they did buy the computer; thanks mum and dad!), they didn't know. There were a plethora of books in the library on how to program, and here you are suggesting I, and everyone like me, be banned from doing so. You'd probably also ban me from the library by assuming I couldn't read aged 5. I certainly could, especially computer manuals. The computer was an amazing thing which did exactly what I told it, and I learned quickly how precise I needed to tell it, and when I made a mistake, it repeated my mistakes over and over without noticing. I learned more about digital ethics age 5 trying to write games than the typical CEO learns going on a "Do Not Create The Torment Nexus" course. You'd insist I not be allowed to even use software, let alone write my own. You'd be actively cutting off my future professional life, and depriving entire nations of bedroom programmers cum professional software engineers, with your ill-thought-out ban. If your children show an aptitude or a fascination for a topic, I hope you feed that and praise them for it.
  - notepad0x90 1y ago
    I think books are great, provided they're age appropriate. First, my proposal is a delay, not a ban. This is such a good idea, that a lot of FAANG CEO's are doing this for their kids welfare (more or less) already. I think the overall welfare of kids should be weighed against the benefits. I think you should have been learning to tinker with electronics, solve math algorithms and develop all kinds of curiosities. the future of being a programmer involves competing with LLMs, you have to be good at knowing what to program. Humans aren't needed when it comes to simply knowing how to write code. I acknowledge that there will be exceptions, and perhaps that should be considered. but also lookup terms like "ipad babies" and how gen-alpha is turning out. Most parents don't teach their kids how to code in basic. and content regulation for kids is futile, unless you want the government monitoring your devices "for the children's sake". > If your children show an aptitude or a fascination for a topic, I hope you feed that and praise them for it. Same, but I hope you let them learn things in the right order and consider their overall long term wellbeing instead of temporary satisfaction. Children did fine without computers for all of humanity's history. the nature of children hasn't changed in the past 3 decades. What you consider feeding might actually be stagnating. If there is a good and practical way to make sure that children are developed well enough to interact with computers, and we can also make sure that the content they consume is age-appropriate without implementing a dystopian surveillance state, i'm all for it. But pretending the problem doesn't exist, and letting 99% of children suffer because 1% of kids might learn BASIC doesn't sound like a good plan.

tintor 1y ago

This is very extreme take. I learned to program at age 10. It is an amazing tool for mind development. Had to invent sine and cosine tables to make my computer games, before even encountering the concept at school.

bdangubic 1y ago
same and about the same age. however, completely different times. I thought about this a lot and have safely concluded that if I was 9-10 years old now programming would quickly turn into gaming and doom scrolling and … given a choice now of not being exposed to it at same age or nothing until say HS I would choose the latter
- HaZeust 1y ago
  Speaking as someone in their 20s - no, I don't think it's a "completely different time". Just 10 years ago, I first learned programming from scripting languages; SourcePawn from Team Fortress 2, and Lua from Roblox/GMod. Predators, hive minds, and self-destructing behavior from children wasn't suddenly invented or rejuvenated after 2016. All 3 were a total hotbed of bad influences for a child: Team Fortress had trade pub servers with people doing sprays of literal CP and wearing custom lewd skins to harass users with them - and people with very questionable social skills and intentions huddled up in realtime microphone comms with children, Roblox's predator problem for the last 14+ years (at least that I can attest) is suddenly en vogue now that they're a public company and there's stock shorting to be had, GMod is still the community with the most colorful vocabulary I've ever encountered - plus grooming. And much more. Indeed, you can (and I did) get burned by these actualities when exposed to such communities in your youth - and it can cost you real money, real time, real idealism/innocence, and real mental health. However, I think being exposed to softwares, systems and games that inspired curiosity and led me toward a path of WANTING to contribute brought me to this software development career and life path, and it would have been much more inaccessible and unknown to me in any other way. And I favorited a comment from another HN user a few days ago that goes in astute depth on why that path can only be organically introduced and self-governed [1]. I referred to these places earlier in my comment as "bad influences". I think the single-most powerful thing a parent can do tasked with this dilemma - especially during an upbringing in systemically hard, uncertain, and turbulent times - is teaching them how to identify, avoid, and confront bad influences. Equipped with that, and knowing how to handle yourself, is of utmost importance. 1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45718773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45718773

GaryBluto 1y ago

> anything that runs software for children under 13 This is perhaps one of the most bizarre opinions I have ever read. This would bar under 13s from using everything from vending machines to modern fridges. What would you consider "using"? Would under 13s be blocked from riding in any car with "smart" features? This is a perfect example of the kind of nonsensical totalitarian extremism you see on here that people only espouse because they believe it would never affect them. It goes completely against the Hacker ethos.

redleader55 1y ago

I started learning how to use a computer at the age of 10. This is my career today and has been my hobby for the last 35 years. Learning how to use a computer is like learning math, it needs to happen early.