22 ms·

Well "transpiling to C" does include GCC and clang, right? Sure, trying to support _all_ C compilers is nearly impossible, and not what I mean. Quite many langu

by thomasmg 11mo ago

Well "transpiling to C" does include GCC and clang, right? Sure, trying to support _all_ C compilers is nearly impossible, and not what I mean. Quite many languages support transpiling to C (even Go and Lua), but in my view that alone is not sufficient for a C replacement in places like the Linux kernel: for this to work, tracing GC can not be used. And this is what prevents Fil-C and many other languages to be used in that area. Rust borrow checker: the problem I see is not so much that it's hard to learn, but requires constant effort. In Rust, you are basically forced to use it, even if the code is not performance critical. Sure, Rust also supports reference counting GC, but that is more _verbose_ to use... It should be _simpler_ to use in my view, similar to Python. The main disadvantage of Rust, in my view, is that it's verbose. (Also, there is a tendency to add too many features, similar to C++, but that's a secondary concern).

zozbot234 11mo ago
> Sure, Rust also supports reference counting GC, but that is more _verbose_ to use... It should be _simpler_ to use in my view, similar to Python. If that's what you're looking for, you can use Swift. The latest release has memory safety by default, just like Rust.
- thomasmg 11mo ago
  Yes. I do like Swift as a language. The main disadvantages of Swift, in my view, are: (A) The lack of an (optional) "ownership" model for memory management. So you _have_ to use reference counting everywhere. That limits the performance. This is measurable: I converted some micro-benchmarks to various languages, and Swift does suffer for the memory managment intensive tasks [1]. (B) Swift is too Apple-centric currently. Sure, this might be become a non-issue over time. [1] https://github.com/thomasmueller/bau-lang/blob/main/doc/performance.md https://github.com/thomasmueller/bau-lang/blob/main/doc/perf...
- galangalalgol 11mo ago
  Someone, maybe Tolnay?, recently posted a short Go snippet that segfaults because the virtual function table pointer and data pointer aren't copied atomically or mutexed. The same thing works in swift, because neither is thread safe. Swift is also slower than go unless you pass unchecked making it even less safe than go. C#/f# are safer from that particular problem and more performant than either go or swift, but have suffered from the same deserialization attacks that java does. Right now if you want true memory and thread safety, you need to limit a GC language to zero concurrency, use a borrow checker, i.e. rust, or be purely functional which in production would mean haskell. None of those are effortless, and which is easiest depends on you and your problem. Rust is easiest for me, but I keep thinking if I justvwrite enough haskell it will all click. I'm worried if my brain starts working that way about the impacts on things other than writing Haskell.
  - neonsunset 11mo ago
    > C#/f# are safer from that particular problem and more performant than either go or swift, but have suffered from the same deserialization attacks that java does. They have not in the past 10 years.
  - galangalalgol 11mo ago
    Replying to myself because a vouch wasn't enough to bring the post back from the dead. They were partially right and educated me. The downvotes were unnecessary. MS did start advising against dangerous deserializers 8yrs ago. They were only deprecated three years ago though, and only removed last year. Some of the remaining are only mostly safe and then only if you follow best practice. So it isn't a problem entirely of the past, but it has gotten a lot better. Unless you are writing formal proofs nothing is completely safe, GC languages had found a sweet spot until increased concurrency started uncovering thread safety problems. Rust seems to have found a sweet spot that is usable despite the grumbling. It could probably be made a bit easier. The compiler already knows when something needs to be send or synch, and it could just do that invisibly, but that would lead people to code in a way that had lots of locking which is slow and generates deadlocks too often. This way the wordiness of shared mutable state steers you towards avoiding it except when a functional design pattern wouldn't be performant. If you have to use mutex a lot in rust stop fighting the borrow checker and listen to what it is saying.
    - neonsunset 11mo ago
      [dead]
vlovich123 11mo ago
> Quite many languages support transpiling to C (even Go and Lua) Source? I’m not familiar with official efforts here. I see one in the community for Lua but nothing for Go. It’s rare for languages to use this as anything other than a stopgap or a neat community poc. But my point was precisely this - if you’re only targeting GCC/LLVM, you can just use their backend directly rather than transpiling to C which only buys you some development velocity at the beginning (as in easier to generate that from your frontend vs the intermediate representation) at the cost of a worse binary output (since you have to encode the language semantics on top of the C virtual machine which isn’t necessarily free). Specifically this is why transpile to C makes no sense for Rust - it’s already got all the infrastructure to call the compiler internals directly without having to go through the C frontend. > Rust borrow checker: the problem I see is not so much that it's hard to learn, but requires constant effort. In Rust, you are basically forced to use it, even if the code is not performance critical Your only forced to use it when you’re storing references within a struct. In like 99% of all other cases the compiler will correctly infer the lifetimes for you. Not sure when the last time was you tried to write rust code. > Sure, Rust also supports reference counting GC, but that is more _verbose_ to use... It should be _simpler_ to use in my view, similar to Python. Any language targeting the performance envelope rust does needs GC to be opt in. And I’m not sure how much extra verbosity there is to wrap the type with RC/Arc unless you’re referring to the need to throw in a RefCell/Mutex to support in place mutation as well, but that goes back to there not being an alternative easy way to simultaneously have safety and no runtime overhead. > The main disadvantage of Rust, in my view, is that it's verbose. Sure, but compared to what? It’s actually a lot more concise than C/C++ if you consider how much boilerplate dancing there is with header files and compilation units. And if you start factoring in that few people actually seem to actually know what the rule of 0 is and how to write exception safe code, there’s drastically less verbosity and the verbosity is impossible to use incorrectly. Compared to Python sure, but then go use something like otterlang [1] which gives you close to Rust performance with a syntax closer to Python. But again, it’s a different point on the Pareto frontier - there’s no one language that could rule them all because they’re orthogonal design criteria that conflict with each other. And no one has figured out how to have a cohesive GC that transparently and progressively lets you go between no GC, ref GC and tracing GC despite foundational research a few years back showing that ref GC and tracing GC are part of the same spectrum and high performing implementations in both the to converge on the same set of techniques. [1] https://github.com/jonathanmagambo/otterlang https://github.com/jonathanmagambo/otterlang
reppap 11mo ago
Re: borrow checker Isn't it just enforcing something you should be doing in every language anyway, i.e. thinking about ownership of data.
- zozbot234 11mo ago
  The borrow checker involves documenting the ownership of data throughout the program. That's what people are calling "overly verbose" and saying it "makes comprehensive large-scale refactoring impractical" as an argument against Rust. (And no it doesn't, it's just keeping you honest about what the refactor truly involves.)
  - estebank 11mo ago
    The annoying experience with the borrow checker is when following the compiler errors after making a change until you hit a fundamental ownership problem a few levels away from the original change that precludes the change (like ending up with a self referencial borrow). This can bite even experienced developers, depending on how many layers of indirection there are (and sometimes the change that would be adding a single Rc or Cell in a field isn't applicable because it happens in a library you don't control). I do still prefer hitting that wall than having it compile and end up with rare incorrect runtime behaviour (with any luck, a segfault), but it is more annoying than "it just works because the GC dealt with it for me".
    - Measter 11mo ago
      There are also limits to what the borrow checker is capable of verifying. There will always be programs which are valid under the rules the borrow checker is enforcing, but the borrow checker rejects. It's kinda annoying when you run into those. I think I've also ran into a situation where the borrow checker itself wasn't the issue, but rather the way references were created in a pattern match causing the borrow checker to reject the program. That was also annoying.
      - vlovich123 11mo ago
estebank 11mo ago
> Rust also supports reference counting GC, but that is more _verbose_ to use... It should be _simpler_ to use in my view, similar to Python. The main disadvantage of Rust, in my view, is that it's verbose. I think there's space for Rust to become more ergonomic, but its goals limit just how far it can go. At the same time I think there's space to take Rust and make a Rust# that goes further on the Swift/Scala end of the spectrum, where things like auto-cloning of references are implemented first, that can consume Rust libraries. From the organizational point of you, you can see it as a mix between nightly and editions. From a user's point of view you can look at it as a mode to make refactoring faster, onbiarding easier and a test bed for language evolution. Not being Rust itself it would also allow for different stability guarantees (you can have breaking changes every year), which also means you can be holder on tryin things out knowing you're not permanently stuck with them. People who care about performance, correctness and reuse can still use Rust. People who would be well served by Swift/Scala, have access to Rust's libraries and toolchain. > (Also, there is a tendency to add too many features, similar to C++, but that's a secondary concern). These two quoted sentiments seem contradictory: making Rust less verbose to interact with reference counted values would indeed be adding a feature.

zozbot234 11mo ago

> Sure, Rust also supports reference counting GC, but that is more _verbose_ to use... It should be _simpler_ to use in my view, similar to Python. If that's what you're looking for, you can use Swift. The latest release has memory safety by default, just like Rust.

thomasmg 11mo ago
Yes. I do like Swift as a language. The main disadvantages of Swift, in my view, are: (A) The lack of an (optional) "ownership" model for memory management. So you _have_ to use reference counting everywhere. That limits the performance. This is measurable: I converted some micro-benchmarks to various languages, and Swift does suffer for the memory managment intensive tasks [1]. (B) Swift is too Apple-centric currently. Sure, this might be become a non-issue over time. [1] https://github.com/thomasmueller/bau-lang/blob/main/doc/performance.md https://github.com/thomasmueller/bau-lang/blob/main/doc/perf...
galangalalgol 11mo ago
Someone, maybe Tolnay?, recently posted a short Go snippet that segfaults because the virtual function table pointer and data pointer aren't copied atomically or mutexed. The same thing works in swift, because neither is thread safe. Swift is also slower than go unless you pass unchecked making it even less safe than go. C#/f# are safer from that particular problem and more performant than either go or swift, but have suffered from the same deserialization attacks that java does. Right now if you want true memory and thread safety, you need to limit a GC language to zero concurrency, use a borrow checker, i.e. rust, or be purely functional which in production would mean haskell. None of those are effortless, and which is easiest depends on you and your problem. Rust is easiest for me, but I keep thinking if I justvwrite enough haskell it will all click. I'm worried if my brain starts working that way about the impacts on things other than writing Haskell.
- neonsunset 11mo ago
  > C#/f# are safer from that particular problem and more performant than either go or swift, but have suffered from the same deserialization attacks that java does. They have not in the past 10 years.
- galangalalgol 11mo ago
  Replying to myself because a vouch wasn't enough to bring the post back from the dead. They were partially right and educated me. The downvotes were unnecessary. MS did start advising against dangerous deserializers 8yrs ago. They were only deprecated three years ago though, and only removed last year. Some of the remaining are only mostly safe and then only if you follow best practice. So it isn't a problem entirely of the past, but it has gotten a lot better. Unless you are writing formal proofs nothing is completely safe, GC languages had found a sweet spot until increased concurrency started uncovering thread safety problems. Rust seems to have found a sweet spot that is usable despite the grumbling. It could probably be made a bit easier. The compiler already knows when something needs to be send or synch, and it could just do that invisibly, but that would lead people to code in a way that had lots of locking which is slow and generates deadlocks too often. This way the wordiness of shared mutable state steers you towards avoiding it except when a functional design pattern wouldn't be performant. If you have to use mutex a lot in rust stop fighting the borrow checker and listen to what it is saying.
  - neonsunset 11mo ago
    [dead]

vlovich123 11mo ago

> Quite many languages support transpiling to C (even Go and Lua) Source? I’m not familiar with official efforts here. I see one in the community for Lua but nothing for Go. It’s rare for languages to use this as anything other than a stopgap or a neat community poc. But my point was precisely this - if you’re only targeting GCC/LLVM, you can just use their backend directly rather than transpiling to C which only buys you some development velocity at the beginning (as in easier to generate that from your frontend vs the intermediate representation) at the cost of a worse binary output (since you have to encode the language semantics on top of the C virtual machine which isn’t necessarily free). Specifically this is why transpile to C makes no sense for Rust - it’s already got all the infrastructure to call the compiler internals directly without having to go through the C frontend. > Rust borrow checker: the problem I see is not so much that it's hard to learn, but requires constant effort. In Rust, you are basically forced to use it, even if the code is not performance critical Your only forced to use it when you’re storing references within a struct. In like 99% of all other cases the compiler will correctly infer the lifetimes for you. Not sure when the last time was you tried to write rust code. > Sure, Rust also supports reference counting GC, but that is more _verbose_ to use... It should be _simpler_ to use in my view, similar to Python. Any language targeting the performance envelope rust does needs GC to be opt in. And I’m not sure how much extra verbosity there is to wrap the type with RC/Arc unless you’re referring to the need to throw in a RefCell/Mutex to support in place mutation as well, but that goes back to there not being an alternative easy way to simultaneously have safety and no runtime overhead. > The main disadvantage of Rust, in my view, is that it's verbose. Sure, but compared to what? It’s actually a lot more concise than C/C++ if you consider how much boilerplate dancing there is with header files and compilation units. And if you start factoring in that few people actually seem to actually know what the rule of 0 is and how to write exception safe code, there’s drastically less verbosity and the verbosity is impossible to use incorrectly. Compared to Python sure, but then go use something like otterlang [1] which gives you close to Rust performance with a syntax closer to Python. But again, it’s a different point on the Pareto frontier - there’s no one language that could rule them all because they’re orthogonal design criteria that conflict with each other. And no one has figured out how to have a cohesive GC that transparently and progressively lets you go between no GC, ref GC and tracing GC despite foundational research a few years back showing that ref GC and tracing GC are part of the same spectrum and high performing implementations in both the to converge on the same set of techniques. [1] https://github.com/jonathanmagambo/otterlang https://github.com/jonathanmagambo/otterlang

reppap 11mo ago

Re: borrow checker Isn't it just enforcing something you should be doing in every language anyway, i.e. thinking about ownership of data.

zozbot234 11mo ago
The borrow checker involves documenting the ownership of data throughout the program. That's what people are calling "overly verbose" and saying it "makes comprehensive large-scale refactoring impractical" as an argument against Rust. (And no it doesn't, it's just keeping you honest about what the refactor truly involves.)
- estebank 11mo ago
  The annoying experience with the borrow checker is when following the compiler errors after making a change until you hit a fundamental ownership problem a few levels away from the original change that precludes the change (like ending up with a self referencial borrow). This can bite even experienced developers, depending on how many layers of indirection there are (and sometimes the change that would be adding a single Rc or Cell in a field isn't applicable because it happens in a library you don't control). I do still prefer hitting that wall than having it compile and end up with rare incorrect runtime behaviour (with any luck, a segfault), but it is more annoying than "it just works because the GC dealt with it for me".
  - Measter 11mo ago
    There are also limits to what the borrow checker is capable of verifying. There will always be programs which are valid under the rules the borrow checker is enforcing, but the borrow checker rejects. It's kinda annoying when you run into those. I think I've also ran into a situation where the borrow checker itself wasn't the issue, but rather the way references were created in a pattern match causing the borrow checker to reject the program. That was also annoying.
    - vlovich123 11mo ago

estebank 11mo ago

> Rust also supports reference counting GC, but that is more _verbose_ to use... It should be _simpler_ to use in my view, similar to Python. The main disadvantage of Rust, in my view, is that it's verbose. I think there's space for Rust to become more ergonomic, but its goals limit just how far it can go. At the same time I think there's space to take Rust and make a Rust# that goes further on the Swift/Scala end of the spectrum, where things like auto-cloning of references are implemented first, that can consume Rust libraries. From the organizational point of you, you can see it as a mix between nightly and editions. From a user's point of view you can look at it as a mode to make refactoring faster, onbiarding easier and a test bed for language evolution. Not being Rust itself it would also allow for different stability guarantees (you can have breaking changes every year), which also means you can be holder on tryin things out knowing you're not permanently stuck with them. People who care about performance, correctness and reuse can still use Rust. People who would be well served by Swift/Scala, have access to Rust's libraries and toolchain. > (Also, there is a tendency to add too many features, similar to C++, but that's a secondary concern). These two quoted sentiments seem contradictory: making Rust less verbose to interact with reference counted values would indeed be adding a feature.