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On the one hand, maybe it’s just how crazy our economy feels lately but I don’t conceptually have a problem with, if you sell a 100 million cars for 50k each,

On the one hand, maybe it’s just how crazy our economy feels lately but I don’t conceptually have a problem with, if you sell a 100 million cars for 50k each, and keep 10k for yourself, you should get a trillion dollars. Innovation and providing a product people want should be rewarded. On the other hand, I do have a problem with: * market manipulation to get that valuation. * using that money to manipulate the government/rules to preference yourself * anti-competitive behavior. * valuations based on hype and vaporware. Etc.

andsoitis 1y ago
What anti-competitive behavior has Tesla committed?
- cindyllm 1y ago
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- ben_w 1y ago
  Tesla? Nothing that I know of. Not even getting the President to promote Tesla cars while Musk was working in DOGE, though that was dodgy for other reasons. Musk? Looks to me like buying government influence, using it to halt investigations against his own companies: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/04/doge-could-help-musk-firms-avoid-2-3b-in-government-penalties-democrats-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/04/doge-could-help-... That, plus how all of the Musk group gets smooshed together in weird ways, and how TSLA is treated as a public investment vehicle for all the other stuff: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-shareholders-vote-elon-musk-investment-xai-2025-11?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-shareholders-vote-elon...
  - andsoitis 1y ago
    I fail to see how any of the examples you give unfairly limit competition in the car market? Common forms of anti-competitive behavior: price fixing, predatory pricing, cartels, abuse of dominant position to exclude rivals, etc. Tesla's competition are carmakers and this is the list of top car makers by revenue: VW, Toyota, Stellantis, Mercedes-Benz, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Tesla, BYD, and Nissan - https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/09151...
    - ben_w 1y ago
      > Common forms of anti-competitive behavior: price fixing, predatory pricing, cartels, abuse of dominant position to exclude rivals, etc. I agree that "became head of what was simultaneously de-facto and also not-de-jure government department, abused it for personal gain" is fairly un-common. > Tesla's competition are carmakers My claim (Note: I'm not techblueberry) is about Musk, not about Tesla. That said: Tesla's competition should be carmakers. The CEO (and his board, and his shareholders) seem to be all on the same different page to you and I, that they're all about AI and robotics now.
      - andsoitis 1y ago
        > Tesla's competition should be carmakers. The CEO (and his board, and his shareholders) seem to be all on the same different page to you and I, that they're all about AI and robotics now. A company can choose to expand their market via new lines of business, surely!
        ben_w 1y ago
        Sure, I'm just saying that they don't agree with you (or me) that their "competition are carmakers". They say this very loudly when you point at the P/E ratio being 30-60 times that of traditional car companies. I mean, their competition clearly are carmakers, because while Tesla talks about the robots they don't actually sell them — but the if the shareholders are happy and the board are happy then the CEO can make a bunch of remote control androids and fail to sell them for a few years while other people start eating their lunches.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        Which of their competitor sell FSD?
kristjansson 1y ago
> 20+% margin on cars wouldn't that be nice.

andsoitis 1y ago

What anti-competitive behavior has Tesla committed?

cindyllm 1y ago
[dead]
ben_w 1y ago
Tesla? Nothing that I know of. Not even getting the President to promote Tesla cars while Musk was working in DOGE, though that was dodgy for other reasons. Musk? Looks to me like buying government influence, using it to halt investigations against his own companies: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/04/doge-could-help-musk-firms-avoid-2-3b-in-government-penalties-democrats-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/04/doge-could-help-... That, plus how all of the Musk group gets smooshed together in weird ways, and how TSLA is treated as a public investment vehicle for all the other stuff: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-shareholders-vote-elon-musk-investment-xai-2025-11?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-shareholders-vote-elon...
- andsoitis 1y ago
  I fail to see how any of the examples you give unfairly limit competition in the car market? Common forms of anti-competitive behavior: price fixing, predatory pricing, cartels, abuse of dominant position to exclude rivals, etc. Tesla's competition are carmakers and this is the list of top car makers by revenue: VW, Toyota, Stellantis, Mercedes-Benz, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Tesla, BYD, and Nissan - https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/09151...
  - ben_w 1y ago
    > Common forms of anti-competitive behavior: price fixing, predatory pricing, cartels, abuse of dominant position to exclude rivals, etc. I agree that "became head of what was simultaneously de-facto and also not-de-jure government department, abused it for personal gain" is fairly un-common. > Tesla's competition are carmakers My claim (Note: I'm not techblueberry) is about Musk, not about Tesla. That said: Tesla's competition should be carmakers. The CEO (and his board, and his shareholders) seem to be all on the same different page to you and I, that they're all about AI and robotics now.
    - andsoitis 1y ago
      > Tesla's competition should be carmakers. The CEO (and his board, and his shareholders) seem to be all on the same different page to you and I, that they're all about AI and robotics now. A company can choose to expand their market via new lines of business, surely!
      - ben_w 1y ago
        Sure, I'm just saying that they don't agree with you (or me) that their "competition are carmakers". They say this very loudly when you point at the P/E ratio being 30-60 times that of traditional car companies. I mean, their competition clearly are carmakers, because while Tesla talks about the robots they don't actually sell them — but the if the shareholders are happy and the board are happy then the CEO can make a bunch of remote control androids and fail to sell them for a few years while other people start eating their lunches.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        Which of their competitor sell FSD?

kristjansson 1y ago

> 20+% margin on cars wouldn't that be nice.