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I think a big issue some Americans have is that they think socialism is great because it is the European model. 1. Europe is not socialist (Eastern Europe and

I think a big issue some Americans have is that they think socialism is great because it is the European model. 1. Europe is not socialist (Eastern Europe and the USSR were). And, no, social-democracy is NOT socialism. 2. The welfare state is essentially bankrupt in many European countries. 3. Socialism cannot, ultimately be democratic. My only sane interpretation for an election of a socialist candidate in 2025 is that this is a protest vote not an adhesion to socialism...

margalabargala 1y ago
Europe is not a monolith. Norwegians self identify as socialist for example.
- noselasd 1y ago
  > Norwegians self identify as socialist for example Er.. that's not even remotely true
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    Last time I spent a month in Norway I repeatedly had various residents explain to me that various things were the way they were "because we are a socialist country". If they call themselves "socialist" then I will too.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      Well, there is a difference between "this is a socialist country" and "I am a socialist". Granted though, that under a functioning democracy, there will be overlap: if the country is x then most likely at least a plurality of voters support x. It doesn't mean that "all citizens support x" or "any specific citizen supports x and self identifies themself an x-ist".
      - margalabargala 1y ago
        > Well, there is a difference between "this is a socialist country" and "I am a socialist". To be clear, the former is what I was repeatedly told. Nobody personally self-identified themselves as a socialist to me, they described their country as socialist.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  I don't how Norwegians self-identify but Norway is not socialist, so...
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    That's OK! There are a lot of things you don't know. What's important is that you're learning. Consider that your assumption that Norway is not socialist is incorrect. Just because Norway may not meet whatever definition the Heritage Foundation is telling you when you look it up, doesn't mean that Norway does not nevertheless use the word "Socialist" to describe their own government.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      Hilarious comment. I am hoping it is tongue in cheek. If not, it does highlight something worrying: Too many people either don't understand what "socialism" means or, perhaps even worse, think you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean.
      - margalabargala 1y ago
        > Too many people either don't understand what "socialism" means or, perhaps even worse, think you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. Gosh, you should tell the Norwegians! I'm sure they will want to know that their government doesn't meet your preferred objectively-universally-correct definition of "socialist" and so they should stop calling themselves that. Personally I have no issue with it in the same way I have no problem with Americans calling their government a "democracy".
TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
1. The European model is either Democratic Socialism, or Social Democracy, depending who you ask. 2. The US government is essentially bankrupt, and has been spending far beyond its means for decades. But countries are not households. Sovereign countries cannot run of money. But they can run out of confidence. For a nation state, bankruptcy happens when its currency is no longer respected and essential imports become so expensive they cause hyperinflation. By any objective measure, the US today is closer to that today than Europe. (It's mostly the fault of tariffs, but the cause doesn't matter.) It's true the influence of neoliberal lobbying and opportunism by US corporates has reduced the effectiveness of welfare in the EU. But health and benefits are still higher, and the only country where insured health costs bankrupt 500,000 people a year is the US.

margalabargala 1y ago

Europe is not a monolith. Norwegians self identify as socialist for example.

noselasd 1y ago
> Norwegians self identify as socialist for example Er.. that's not even remotely true
- margalabargala 1y ago
  Last time I spent a month in Norway I repeatedly had various residents explain to me that various things were the way they were "because we are a socialist country". If they call themselves "socialist" then I will too.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    Well, there is a difference between "this is a socialist country" and "I am a socialist". Granted though, that under a functioning democracy, there will be overlap: if the country is x then most likely at least a plurality of voters support x. It doesn't mean that "all citizens support x" or "any specific citizen supports x and self identifies themself an x-ist".
    - margalabargala 1y ago
      > Well, there is a difference between "this is a socialist country" and "I am a socialist". To be clear, the former is what I was repeatedly told. Nobody personally self-identified themselves as a socialist to me, they described their country as socialist.
mytailorisrich 1y ago
I don't how Norwegians self-identify but Norway is not socialist, so...
- margalabargala 1y ago
  That's OK! There are a lot of things you don't know. What's important is that you're learning. Consider that your assumption that Norway is not socialist is incorrect. Just because Norway may not meet whatever definition the Heritage Foundation is telling you when you look it up, doesn't mean that Norway does not nevertheless use the word "Socialist" to describe their own government.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    Hilarious comment. I am hoping it is tongue in cheek. If not, it does highlight something worrying: Too many people either don't understand what "socialism" means or, perhaps even worse, think you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean.
    - margalabargala 1y ago
      > Too many people either don't understand what "socialism" means or, perhaps even worse, think you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. Gosh, you should tell the Norwegians! I'm sure they will want to know that their government doesn't meet your preferred objectively-universally-correct definition of "socialist" and so they should stop calling themselves that. Personally I have no issue with it in the same way I have no problem with Americans calling their government a "democracy".

TheOtherHobbes 1y ago

1. The European model is either Democratic Socialism, or Social Democracy, depending who you ask. 2. The US government is essentially bankrupt, and has been spending far beyond its means for decades. But countries are not households. Sovereign countries cannot run of money. But they can run out of confidence. For a nation state, bankruptcy happens when its currency is no longer respected and essential imports become so expensive they cause hyperinflation. By any objective measure, the US today is closer to that today than Europe. (It's mostly the fault of tariffs, but the cause doesn't matter.) It's true the influence of neoliberal lobbying and opportunism by US corporates has reduced the effectiveness of welfare in the EU. But health and benefits are still higher, and the only country where insured health costs bankrupt 500,000 people a year is the US.