6 ms·

Let's hope someone can do the same for grid-scale seasonal storage. "Excess" solar electricity won't be free in (noon, summer) if you can easily bank it for (ni

by jl6 11mo ago

Let's hope someone can do the same for grid-scale seasonal storage. "Excess" solar electricity won't be free in (noon, summer) if you can easily bank it for (night, winter).

BoredPositron 11mo ago
It's a thread about Australia not Austria.
jocaal 11mo ago
Power travels near the speed of light. In theory, the entire globe can be connected and countries with daylight can supply those at night in a cycle.
- fooker 11mo ago
  We would need impractically high voltages to minimize power loss over long distances. Maybe something like microwave transmission or cheap superconductors will solve it.
  - Tade0 11mo ago
    The loss is not that much - approximately 3.5% per 1000km. IIRC the Changji-Guquan HVDC line reported around 8% over 3300km thanks to working at 1100kV. Extend that to 10k km and you're looking at approximately 25%, but if it's surplus solar, who cares? Such a line costs as much as a highway broadly speaking, so it's not impossible to build.
    - mrguyorama 11mo ago
      For reference, that would give me in Maine the ability to buy power from a solar farm in Arizona or other literally unutilized deserts. Local power costs are over 30 cents per KWh, so that could be pretty competitive. The problem is that, no profit based organization will ever build "surplus" solar to enable that kind of thing. If we want surplus power, if we want a strong grid, if we want cheap power, if we want to enable the ability to quite literally waste solar power on inefficient processes (including things like industrial processes that produce less CO2 or generating hydrogen or methane as long term energy storage), we have to get the government to make it happen But, uh, we hired people who would rather spend $170 billion on harassing random cities and brown people so..... Everyone get ready to pay absurd rates for electricity to support outdated businesses that have been directing American energy policy since Reagan, including paying about 60k coal miners in west virginia for a resource that is economically inferior to other fossil fuels but because they voted for a democrat once they now get a stranglehold on the US economy.
      - noir_lord 11mo ago
        Unsure if this one will ever go ahead but if it does it's pretty impressive in scope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Power_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Powe...
      - cycomanic 11mo ago
        > For reference, that would give me in Maine the ability to buy power from a solar farm in Arizona or other literally unutilized deserts. > > Local power costs are over 30 cents per KWh, so that could be pretty competitive. > > The problem is that, no profit based organization will ever build "surplus" solar to enable that kind of thing. If we want surplus power, if we want a strong grid, if we want cheap power, if we want to enable the ability to quite literally waste solar power on inefficient processes (including things like industrial processes that produce less CO2 or generating hydrogen or methane as long term energy storage), we have to get the government to make it happen There are huge orbortunities for arbitrage in these areas. That's why in Europe there has been significant investment into HVDC connections recently. AFAIK they are mostly (all? ) build privately without special government subsidies (over the usual ones that all large infrastructure projects always seem to get). I think this partly the beauty of the renewable revolution, it
      - cycomanic 11mo ago
        > For reference, that would give me in Maine the ability to buy power from a solar farm in Arizona or other literally unutilized deserts. > > Local power costs are over 30 cents per KWh, so that could be pretty competitive. > > The problem is that, no profit based organization will ever build "surplus" solar to enable that kind of thing. If we want surplus power, if we want a strong grid, if we want cheap power, if we want to enable the ability to quite literally waste solar power on inefficient processes (including things like industrial processes that produce less CO2 or generating hydrogen or methane as long term energy storage), we have to get the government to make it happen > I think what we seeing in a lot of places now is quite the opposite. There are significant opportunities for arbitrage, so private entities are building HVDC lines in Europe for example (without special subsidies over the usual ones that all big infrastructure always seems to get AFAIK). That's part of the beauty of the renewables revolution it breaks up the stronghold that only a few big corps held over generation.
- xigoi 11mo ago
  Do we have good enough conductors for that?
  - quickthrowman 11mo ago
    Utility conductors are just aluminum wrapped around a steel core, air is the insulator. You can theoretically handle voltage drop with larger conductors, and there are probably ways to ‘boost’ power over a long transmission line run. I deal with electrical wiring past the utility service entrance and am not super familiar with the utility side so perhaps an EE who works on the grid can chime in with more detail. I also know breakers for HVDC are extremely challenging to make, AC power has the benefit of sine waves crossing the zero line so power can be switched/broken a lot easier than with DC.
- latentsea 11mo ago
  Regional grids are connected via tie-lines, and I heard international grids are also starting to become more connected in this way too. Though, I'd imagine it's complicated to send power from one side of the planet to the other. For starters grids can have different frequencies that need to be converted between. Also all transmission lines are subject to loss factors. In addition all the intermediary transmission companies have to route the power and avoid congestion on their grids, Then you have deal with all the financial settlement of the wheeling charges, which if you have to go through multiple grids and multiple currencies sounds like fun to deal with. My understanding of the intentions of connecting international grids is for things like emergency supply of electricity to a different grid to stabilise the frequency and prevent blackouts.
- gmueckl 11mo ago
  This isn't going to happen simply because it would introduce enormous strategic vulnerabilities. The first act ina war would be to sever an opponent's grid connections to their neighbors because that would massively erode their ability to maintain an orderly civil society.
  - aiono 11mo ago
    Or if everyone depends on another maybe we will not go into a war with each other.
    - tintor 11mo ago
      Well, power dependencies would be uni-directional, not bi-directional.
    - adwn 11mo ago
      People believed this before. Then WW1 happened. 100 years later, people forgot the lessons of the past, and believed this again. Then Russia invaded Ukraine.
      - no_wizard 11mo ago
        If Ukraine was part of NATO it wouldn’t have happened I am willing to bet. Most in depth analysis I’ve seen of these Russia - Ukraine conflicts cite this as one of the top factors in why Russia invaded both a decade ago and the most recent war that is ongoing. That is to say - mutual cooperation agreements like that have enough teeth to keep conflicts to a minimum as the repercussions are severe Also another ultimate irony is that Russia didn’t completely cut the rest of Europe off from its oil and gas. That symbiosis continues albeit not the same way. Perhaps electricity would be the same
  - thelastgallon 11mo ago
    This won't happen because the lines are bi-directional. It would be like chopping off their own energy supply. Because of the Earth's rotation, neighbors can take advantage of each other's sunlight. Parts of Europe and North Africa's energy markets are already working on this. For the past 100+ years, the US has been spending a significant amount of money on protecting oil supplies to protect its oil billionaires and its economy. It's the #1 budget item, outspending the combined military spending of the next 10 economies. This can be reduced to zero, and ultimately, the $ 39 trillion deficit can be eliminated.
energy123 11mo ago
A second solution is to overbuild so you have enough even in winter. Easier to do near the equator. A third solution is to pipe it across timezones using HVDC and accept some level of efficiency loss and some geopolitical risks. A fourth solution is to mix lots of wind, which performs better in winter and cancels out the lower insolation. Realistically it's going to be all of the above, with the balance determined by local factors.
- Manabu-eo 11mo ago
  Related to overbuilding, vertically mounted solar panels can help flatten the generation curve during the day, and may perform better than "optimally tilted" panels on winter, especially where snow might otherwise be a problem.

by jl6 11mo ago

Let's hope someone can do the same for grid-scale seasonal storage. "Excess" solar electricity won't be free in (noon, summer) if you can easily bank it for (night, winter).

BoredPositron 11mo ago

It's a thread about Australia not Austria.

jocaal 11mo ago

Power travels near the speed of light. In theory, the entire globe can be connected and countries with daylight can supply those at night in a cycle.

fooker 11mo ago
We would need impractically high voltages to minimize power loss over long distances. Maybe something like microwave transmission or cheap superconductors will solve it.
- Tade0 11mo ago
  The loss is not that much - approximately 3.5% per 1000km. IIRC the Changji-Guquan HVDC line reported around 8% over 3300km thanks to working at 1100kV. Extend that to 10k km and you're looking at approximately 25%, but if it's surplus solar, who cares? Such a line costs as much as a highway broadly speaking, so it's not impossible to build.
  - mrguyorama 11mo ago
    For reference, that would give me in Maine the ability to buy power from a solar farm in Arizona or other literally unutilized deserts. Local power costs are over 30 cents per KWh, so that could be pretty competitive. The problem is that, no profit based organization will ever build "surplus" solar to enable that kind of thing. If we want surplus power, if we want a strong grid, if we want cheap power, if we want to enable the ability to quite literally waste solar power on inefficient processes (including things like industrial processes that produce less CO2 or generating hydrogen or methane as long term energy storage), we have to get the government to make it happen But, uh, we hired people who would rather spend $170 billion on harassing random cities and brown people so..... Everyone get ready to pay absurd rates for electricity to support outdated businesses that have been directing American energy policy since Reagan, including paying about 60k coal miners in west virginia for a resource that is economically inferior to other fossil fuels but because they voted for a democrat once they now get a stranglehold on the US economy.
    - noir_lord 11mo ago
      Unsure if this one will ever go ahead but if it does it's pretty impressive in scope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Power_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Powe...
    - cycomanic 11mo ago
      > For reference, that would give me in Maine the ability to buy power from a solar farm in Arizona or other literally unutilized deserts. > > Local power costs are over 30 cents per KWh, so that could be pretty competitive. > > The problem is that, no profit based organization will ever build "surplus" solar to enable that kind of thing. If we want surplus power, if we want a strong grid, if we want cheap power, if we want to enable the ability to quite literally waste solar power on inefficient processes (including things like industrial processes that produce less CO2 or generating hydrogen or methane as long term energy storage), we have to get the government to make it happen There are huge orbortunities for arbitrage in these areas. That's why in Europe there has been significant investment into HVDC connections recently. AFAIK they are mostly (all? ) build privately without special government subsidies (over the usual ones that all large infrastructure projects always seem to get). I think this partly the beauty of the renewable revolution, it
    - cycomanic 11mo ago
      > For reference, that would give me in Maine the ability to buy power from a solar farm in Arizona or other literally unutilized deserts. > > Local power costs are over 30 cents per KWh, so that could be pretty competitive. > > The problem is that, no profit based organization will ever build "surplus" solar to enable that kind of thing. If we want surplus power, if we want a strong grid, if we want cheap power, if we want to enable the ability to quite literally waste solar power on inefficient processes (including things like industrial processes that produce less CO2 or generating hydrogen or methane as long term energy storage), we have to get the government to make it happen > I think what we seeing in a lot of places now is quite the opposite. There are significant opportunities for arbitrage, so private entities are building HVDC lines in Europe for example (without special subsidies over the usual ones that all big infrastructure always seems to get AFAIK). That's part of the beauty of the renewables revolution it breaks up the stronghold that only a few big corps held over generation.
xigoi 11mo ago
Do we have good enough conductors for that?
- quickthrowman 11mo ago
  Utility conductors are just aluminum wrapped around a steel core, air is the insulator. You can theoretically handle voltage drop with larger conductors, and there are probably ways to ‘boost’ power over a long transmission line run. I deal with electrical wiring past the utility service entrance and am not super familiar with the utility side so perhaps an EE who works on the grid can chime in with more detail. I also know breakers for HVDC are extremely challenging to make, AC power has the benefit of sine waves crossing the zero line so power can be switched/broken a lot easier than with DC.
latentsea 11mo ago
Regional grids are connected via tie-lines, and I heard international grids are also starting to become more connected in this way too. Though, I'd imagine it's complicated to send power from one side of the planet to the other. For starters grids can have different frequencies that need to be converted between. Also all transmission lines are subject to loss factors. In addition all the intermediary transmission companies have to route the power and avoid congestion on their grids, Then you have deal with all the financial settlement of the wheeling charges, which if you have to go through multiple grids and multiple currencies sounds like fun to deal with. My understanding of the intentions of connecting international grids is for things like emergency supply of electricity to a different grid to stabilise the frequency and prevent blackouts.
gmueckl 11mo ago
This isn't going to happen simply because it would introduce enormous strategic vulnerabilities. The first act ina war would be to sever an opponent's grid connections to their neighbors because that would massively erode their ability to maintain an orderly civil society.
- aiono 11mo ago
  Or if everyone depends on another maybe we will not go into a war with each other.
  - tintor 11mo ago
    Well, power dependencies would be uni-directional, not bi-directional.
  - adwn 11mo ago
    People believed this before. Then WW1 happened. 100 years later, people forgot the lessons of the past, and believed this again. Then Russia invaded Ukraine.
    - no_wizard 11mo ago
      If Ukraine was part of NATO it wouldn’t have happened I am willing to bet. Most in depth analysis I’ve seen of these Russia - Ukraine conflicts cite this as one of the top factors in why Russia invaded both a decade ago and the most recent war that is ongoing. That is to say - mutual cooperation agreements like that have enough teeth to keep conflicts to a minimum as the repercussions are severe Also another ultimate irony is that Russia didn’t completely cut the rest of Europe off from its oil and gas. That symbiosis continues albeit not the same way. Perhaps electricity would be the same
- thelastgallon 11mo ago
  This won't happen because the lines are bi-directional. It would be like chopping off their own energy supply. Because of the Earth's rotation, neighbors can take advantage of each other's sunlight. Parts of Europe and North Africa's energy markets are already working on this. For the past 100+ years, the US has been spending a significant amount of money on protecting oil supplies to protect its oil billionaires and its economy. It's the #1 budget item, outspending the combined military spending of the next 10 economies. This can be reduced to zero, and ultimately, the $ 39 trillion deficit can be eliminated.

energy123 11mo ago

A second solution is to overbuild so you have enough even in winter. Easier to do near the equator. A third solution is to pipe it across timezones using HVDC and accept some level of efficiency loss and some geopolitical risks. A fourth solution is to mix lots of wind, which performs better in winter and cancels out the lower insolation. Realistically it's going to be all of the above, with the balance determined by local factors.

Manabu-eo 11mo ago
Related to overbuilding, vertically mounted solar panels can help flatten the generation curve during the day, and may perform better than "optimally tilted" panels on winter, especially where snow might otherwise be a problem.