3 ms·

Wish they would do this in California where wholesale power can go negative for the same reason.

by vondur 11mo ago

trollbridge 11mo ago
And they actually charge you a fee if you generate. My brother in law unhooked from the grid because back feeding was charging him $100 a month. To give away power.
- mock-possum 11mo ago
  Is that a California thing? In OR it’s like ~$15 to interlink (or whatever the term is)
- danans 11mo ago
  > And they actually charge you a fee if you generate. My brother in law unhooked from the grid because back feeding was charging him $100 a month. To give away power. Which utility and plan is this? I'm not aware of any California residential rate plans that charge you for putting power back on the grid, much less $100/month. That said, wholesale electricity rates are set by high frequency supply/demand markets. Recent residential net metering rates are closely aligned with wholesale supply/demand based rates, so most utilities will compensate your brother in law near $0 when you are pushing power to the grid when wholesale rates are <= $0, because there are not enough buyers of the power he is generating. He is using the grid as a battery, which comes at a cost. This is of course changing as more grid connected storage comes online and creates demand for off peak electricity. In that case, you actually get paid for selling power back to the grid during high grid stress periods. I get paid a few hundred dollars a year in CA for doing that with my measly home backup battery.
  - vondur 11mo ago
    I think they’re referring to the fact that if you’re connected to the grid, you may be charged a base fee of around $100 per month, even if you don’t use any power. Previously, homeowners received credits for the excess solar energy they sent back to the grid, but the state has since ended that program.
    - danans 11mo ago
      > I think they’re referring to the fact that if you’re connected to the grid, you may be charged a base fee of around $100 per month, even if you don’t use any power. The base charge for most customers in PGE territory is $24/month: https://www.pge.com/en/account/billing-and-assistance/base-services-charge.html https://www.pge.com/en/account/billing-and-assistance/base-s... > Previously, homeowners received credits for the excess solar energy they sent back to the grid, but the state has since ended that program. They ended the NEM1.0 and NEM2.0 programs that credited net surplus back to homeowners at retail electricity rates (which includes transmission and distribution costs). Those programs were a subsidy to encourage residential solar PV installation when it was very expensive and rare, not intended to function as long term subsidy programs for PV owners. The switch to NEM3.0 only affects newer installations -the older installations keep the older rates until a change of ownership in the home. Under the new net-metering program, homeowners with solar still get credits for net energy sent back to the grid, albeit at the "avoided cost" rate, which while much lower on average at most times, is reflective of the true value of power at the time it is pushed back to the grid, which is close to wholesale electricity rates. During peak hours and days of the year, the compensation rate can exceed the retail rate of electricity. This incentivizes the installation of energy storage that can be used to move consumption to low-demand times and even arbitrage with stored energy by selling back to the grid at peak hours.
- jimt1234 11mo ago
  A friend of mine is trying to build a house in a remote area of Southern California. He's planning to be completely "off-grid", generating power exclusively from solar. However, local regulators insist he hook up to the local electric utility. Further, in order to run the electrical cables to his property (from the substation), the local fire department insists that the brush is cleared around the new electrical cables. All in, he's looking at around $100K for something he doesn't even want or need. He said he's tried explaining this to local regulators, but they're not hearing it. Oh yeah, yes, after paying all the money to get the electrical hookup he doesn't want or need - yeah, he's gonna be on the hook for around $100/month.
  - jimt1234 11mo ago
    It gets even crazier. Latest: he's got a lawyer that says if he plants trees on a certain percentage of his property, it can be classified as a farm, and then exempt from the power utility hook-up requirement. But that comes with its own requirements, like a well to get water and certain fencing. But yeah, keep in mind, this is all so a dude can generate his own power on his own property.
    - theryan 11mo ago
      If he wants to be completely off-grid wouldn't he want his own well anyways? I'm on a well and it's actually really nice to have zero water bills. I also have a cabin that's on a well that was dug in the 1940s and is still pumping out 'free' water.
  - jeffbee 11mo ago
    If your friend wants to build a remote off-grid house that's in the middle of nowhere, why wouldn't they shop for a jurisdiction that allows it? Places that require utility connections are actual places generally. When you live out in the center of Inyo County you can be off the grid if you want. It sounds to me like your friend wants the benefits of proximity to developed places, but also wants to opt-out of contributing to the development of the place.
    - 11mo ago
danans 11mo ago
Not free, but PGE has started an hourly variable rate plan pilot: https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricing.html#accordion-featured-2b30e5fef6-item-6c45c30ab4 https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricin... However, they aren't taking net metering customers yet, but if you end up spending more on the hourly variable rate plan, they'll refund you to the same you would have spent on the regular time of use rate plan.

Wish they would do this in California where wholesale power can go negative for the same reason.

by vondur 11mo ago

Wish they would do this in California where wholesale power can go negative for the same reason.

And they actually charge you a fee if you generate. My brother in law unhooked from the grid because back feeding was charging him $100 a month. To give away power.

mock-possum 11mo ago
Is that a California thing? In OR it’s like ~$15 to interlink (or whatever the term is)
danans 11mo ago
> And they actually charge you a fee if you generate. My brother in law unhooked from the grid because back feeding was charging him $100 a month. To give away power. Which utility and plan is this? I'm not aware of any California residential rate plans that charge you for putting power back on the grid, much less $100/month. That said, wholesale electricity rates are set by high frequency supply/demand markets. Recent residential net metering rates are closely aligned with wholesale supply/demand based rates, so most utilities will compensate your brother in law near $0 when you are pushing power to the grid when wholesale rates are <= $0, because there are not enough buyers of the power he is generating. He is using the grid as a battery, which comes at a cost. This is of course changing as more grid connected storage comes online and creates demand for off peak electricity. In that case, you actually get paid for selling power back to the grid during high grid stress periods. I get paid a few hundred dollars a year in CA for doing that with my measly home backup battery.
- vondur 11mo ago
  I think they’re referring to the fact that if you’re connected to the grid, you may be charged a base fee of around $100 per month, even if you don’t use any power. Previously, homeowners received credits for the excess solar energy they sent back to the grid, but the state has since ended that program.
  - danans 11mo ago
    > I think they’re referring to the fact that if you’re connected to the grid, you may be charged a base fee of around $100 per month, even if you don’t use any power. The base charge for most customers in PGE territory is $24/month: https://www.pge.com/en/account/billing-and-assistance/base-services-charge.html https://www.pge.com/en/account/billing-and-assistance/base-s... > Previously, homeowners received credits for the excess solar energy they sent back to the grid, but the state has since ended that program. They ended the NEM1.0 and NEM2.0 programs that credited net surplus back to homeowners at retail electricity rates (which includes transmission and distribution costs). Those programs were a subsidy to encourage residential solar PV installation when it was very expensive and rare, not intended to function as long term subsidy programs for PV owners. The switch to NEM3.0 only affects newer installations -the older installations keep the older rates until a change of ownership in the home. Under the new net-metering program, homeowners with solar still get credits for net energy sent back to the grid, albeit at the "avoided cost" rate, which while much lower on average at most times, is reflective of the true value of power at the time it is pushed back to the grid, which is close to wholesale electricity rates. During peak hours and days of the year, the compensation rate can exceed the retail rate of electricity. This incentivizes the installation of energy storage that can be used to move consumption to low-demand times and even arbitrage with stored energy by selling back to the grid at peak hours.
jimt1234 11mo ago
A friend of mine is trying to build a house in a remote area of Southern California. He's planning to be completely "off-grid", generating power exclusively from solar. However, local regulators insist he hook up to the local electric utility. Further, in order to run the electrical cables to his property (from the substation), the local fire department insists that the brush is cleared around the new electrical cables. All in, he's looking at around $100K for something he doesn't even want or need. He said he's tried explaining this to local regulators, but they're not hearing it. Oh yeah, yes, after paying all the money to get the electrical hookup he doesn't want or need - yeah, he's gonna be on the hook for around $100/month.
- jimt1234 11mo ago
  It gets even crazier. Latest: he's got a lawyer that says if he plants trees on a certain percentage of his property, it can be classified as a farm, and then exempt from the power utility hook-up requirement. But that comes with its own requirements, like a well to get water and certain fencing. But yeah, keep in mind, this is all so a dude can generate his own power on his own property.
  - theryan 11mo ago
    If he wants to be completely off-grid wouldn't he want his own well anyways? I'm on a well and it's actually really nice to have zero water bills. I also have a cabin that's on a well that was dug in the 1940s and is still pumping out 'free' water.
- jeffbee 11mo ago
  If your friend wants to build a remote off-grid house that's in the middle of nowhere, why wouldn't they shop for a jurisdiction that allows it? Places that require utility connections are actual places generally. When you live out in the center of Inyo County you can be off the grid if you want. It sounds to me like your friend wants the benefits of proximity to developed places, but also wants to opt-out of contributing to the development of the place.
  - 11mo ago

danans 11mo ago

Not free, but PGE has started an hourly variable rate plan pilot: https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricing.html#accordion-featured-2b30e5fef6-item-6c45c30ab4 https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/hourly-flex-pricin... However, they aren't taking net metering customers yet, but if you end up spending more on the hourly variable rate plan, they'll refund you to the same you would have spent on the regular time of use rate plan.