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I didn't ask about China doing "worse things daily," I asked about China blowing up vessels in international waters and amassing a naval fleet off the coast of

I didn't ask about China doing "worse things daily," I asked about China blowing up vessels in international waters and amassing a naval fleet off the coast of another country. If I understand correctly you are saying the world would be fine with that as long as they claimed the vessels belonged to a drugs cartel?

terminalshort 1y ago
If you traffic drugs to China the CCP will do things to you that are very much worse than the comparatively humane quick death in an airstrike. > amassing a naval fleet off the coast of another country Surely you are joking about this part, right?
- mcv 1y ago
  So would you say it's fine if China claims that some boats in the South China Sea are drug traffickers and blows them up without any evidence? Shouldn't there be some evidence at least that this is the case? Maybe capture the boat and show the drugs, instead of just blowing up any chance of evidence?
  - iamnothere 1y ago
    > So would you say it's fine if China claims that some boats in the South China Sea are drug traffickers and blows them up without any evidence? People making those arguments probably would say it is fine, in the abstract, then when it actually happened they would loudly complain that it was a violation of some treaty or another nation’s sovereignty. Cartels are not some unique exception to the rule of law any more than human traffickers, terrorists, or other bad guys. But the rule of law doesn’t really matter anymore. The legalism of the 20th century is stone dead. In time we will have to relearn the lessons that first brought us there, hopefully without too many needless deaths along the way.
  - IncreasePosts 1y ago
    Divulging your means and methods is a surefire way of getting the cartels to adjust their operating procedure to avoid detection. If they're being watched via satellites, they'll move their ports. If their cell phones have been hacked and are leaking info, they'll start using different devices. If there's a human source giving the info, he'll be hunted down. It's not like this is the first time when the US has withheld evidence for certain actions it took. That doesn't mean the evidence isn't there. This is generally a problem with judging government behavior due to the information asymmetry
  - terminalshort 1y ago
    Would I say it's "fine?" No. I also wouldn't say it's just fine that Trump is blowing up cartel boats. But would I be outraged, or even feel sorry for them? Also no.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  Again, I'm not asking about other unnamed things China may or may not do. I'm asking about blowing up ships in international waters.
  - terminalshort 1y ago
    Then I will answer you perfectly directly. Nobody would give the slightest shit because China already does things 10x worse and nobody gives a shit.
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      This isn't really a direct answer, it's just hand waving. I'm not sure how you're qualifying "ten times worse" and without pointing to specific scenarios it's impossible to verify the responses or non-responses to them.
      - hunterpayne 1y ago
        The real answer is that these boats are not flying national flags. That makes it legal under maritime laws that have been in place for hundreds of years. If you are watching a news source that doesn't mention this, you are consuming propaganda. BTW, this line of propaganda about lack of rule of law is dangerous. Seriously, you should stop it.
        anigbrowl 1y ago
        You keep arguing that not displaying a falg is justification for killing people. This is bullshit. It's justification for interdicting a vessel but not for simply blowing it up.
        op00to 1y ago
        Show the law where not flying a flag means you can blow up a ship. I see plenty of boats every day not flying flags. They could be smuggling drugs. Why not explode them too?
parsimo2010 1y ago
There's a distinction that you either didn't recognize or willfully excluded. It's not that the US is simply "claiming" the vessels belong to a drug cartel, it's that nobody is denying that they were drug vessels. Not even Venezuela [1]. Maduro has denied that he is involved with the drug cartels, and Venezuela has claimed that the one or more of the strikes occurred within Venezuela's territorial waters, but they haven't made the argument that those boats were actually innocent non-criminal vessels. And once you make that distinction, then yes. The world is fine with blowing up vessels that belong to drug cartels, even if China did it. They probably wouldn't be fine if it was actually refugees, but this does not appear to be the case. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdjzw3gplv7o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdjzw3gplv7o
- gadders 1y ago
  Tacitly encouraging/aiding drug trafficking is also a low intensity way to have an asymmetric conflict with a much more powerful country. See also Cuba emptying its jails and sending the prisoners to Florida: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/criminals-in-exodus-from-cuba-us-fears-castro-emptying-his-jails-into-florida-1386288.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/criminals-in-exodus-from-...
  - lupire 1y ago
    Drugs don't harm the other country, so it doesn't help win any conflict.
    - ungreased0675 1y ago
      Are you familiar with the opium wars?
    - gadders 1y ago
      Have you seen the fentanyl addicts in Philadelphia?
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  > It's not that the US is simply "claiming" the vessels belong to a drug cartel, it's that nobody is denying that they were drug vessels. What? The king of England hasn't denied that they're drug smuggling vessels either, it doesn't mean he's admitting they are. I don't understand this logic at all.
lenkite 1y ago
I don't support these strikes since I personally believe the US would be far better served in the long run by arrest and interrogation - and not just a matter of ethical principle. Having said that, all legal vessels have an ID and someone would have complained already about their property and crew being blown up. Its pretty clear they belong to hardcore criminal elements.
- IncreasePosts 1y ago
  There's probably nothing to interrogate - the dudes driving the boats are probably just random poor farmers that took a pay day from a cartel.
  - lenkite 1y ago
    Random poor farmers can't really operate a submarine.
    - vel0city 1y ago
      These kinds of submarines really aren't very complicated to operate. Its not like you're managing a nuclear reactor or anything.
      - lenkite 1y ago
        They are more complicated than you state. Crew need to navigate long distances in open ocean, handle rough weather, and perform docking/unloading. These subs have control systems, ballast tanks and pumps. You need both training and experience. Mismanagement can cause swamping or sinking. The management loses their vessel and their cargo. Basically, "just random poor farmers that took a pay day from a cartel" is simply not possible.
        vel0city 1y ago
        > Crew need to navigate long distances in open ocean Not incredibly difficult these days with GPS. Especially if they're doing an Atlantic crossing, its not like there's a lot of things to hit. They're all diesel-electrics, they spend a lot of their time practically at the surface. When they need to dive, its usually only for a few hours at a time, a compass heading is good enough for those times especially in the open ocean. Its not like they're trying to read complicated sonar outputs or anything like that. They're not busting out a sextant to figure out their latitude. They also aren't explorers trying to chart out a new path, they're pretty much going to follow the known good routes other boats have gone before. > perform docking/unloading I imagine there are more than just the people operating the boats at the docks. I also don't think it takes a lot of training and skill to pick things up and set things down. And its not like they're having to be some certified harbor pilot bringing in the boat into the shipping lanes, its going to be some little dock off in the middle of nowhere far away from other traffic. They could learn the ropes of how to operate this thing in a few days along with some good basic documentation, assuming the farmers are literate. Its not like its that hard figuring out "this handle makes us dive, this handle makes us go up, don't go deeper than this, make sure batteries stay within this range, follow the GPS route". I'm not saying these couldn't possibly be well-trained people operating these vessels, but it doesn't take too much training to figure out how to operate one of these things.

terminalshort 1y ago

If you traffic drugs to China the CCP will do things to you that are very much worse than the comparatively humane quick death in an airstrike. > amassing a naval fleet off the coast of another country Surely you are joking about this part, right?

mcv 1y ago
So would you say it's fine if China claims that some boats in the South China Sea are drug traffickers and blows them up without any evidence? Shouldn't there be some evidence at least that this is the case? Maybe capture the boat and show the drugs, instead of just blowing up any chance of evidence?
- iamnothere 1y ago
  > So would you say it's fine if China claims that some boats in the South China Sea are drug traffickers and blows them up without any evidence? People making those arguments probably would say it is fine, in the abstract, then when it actually happened they would loudly complain that it was a violation of some treaty or another nation’s sovereignty. Cartels are not some unique exception to the rule of law any more than human traffickers, terrorists, or other bad guys. But the rule of law doesn’t really matter anymore. The legalism of the 20th century is stone dead. In time we will have to relearn the lessons that first brought us there, hopefully without too many needless deaths along the way.
- IncreasePosts 1y ago
  Divulging your means and methods is a surefire way of getting the cartels to adjust their operating procedure to avoid detection. If they're being watched via satellites, they'll move their ports. If their cell phones have been hacked and are leaking info, they'll start using different devices. If there's a human source giving the info, he'll be hunted down. It's not like this is the first time when the US has withheld evidence for certain actions it took. That doesn't mean the evidence isn't there. This is generally a problem with judging government behavior due to the information asymmetry
- terminalshort 1y ago
  Would I say it's "fine?" No. I also wouldn't say it's just fine that Trump is blowing up cartel boats. But would I be outraged, or even feel sorry for them? Also no.
AlecSchueler 1y ago
Again, I'm not asking about other unnamed things China may or may not do. I'm asking about blowing up ships in international waters.
- terminalshort 1y ago
  Then I will answer you perfectly directly. Nobody would give the slightest shit because China already does things 10x worse and nobody gives a shit.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    This isn't really a direct answer, it's just hand waving. I'm not sure how you're qualifying "ten times worse" and without pointing to specific scenarios it's impossible to verify the responses or non-responses to them.
    - hunterpayne 1y ago
      The real answer is that these boats are not flying national flags. That makes it legal under maritime laws that have been in place for hundreds of years. If you are watching a news source that doesn't mention this, you are consuming propaganda. BTW, this line of propaganda about lack of rule of law is dangerous. Seriously, you should stop it.
      - anigbrowl 1y ago
        You keep arguing that not displaying a falg is justification for killing people. This is bullshit. It's justification for interdicting a vessel but not for simply blowing it up.
      - op00to 1y ago
        Show the law where not flying a flag means you can blow up a ship. I see plenty of boats every day not flying flags. They could be smuggling drugs. Why not explode them too?

parsimo2010 1y ago

There's a distinction that you either didn't recognize or willfully excluded. It's not that the US is simply "claiming" the vessels belong to a drug cartel, it's that nobody is denying that they were drug vessels. Not even Venezuela [1]. Maduro has denied that he is involved with the drug cartels, and Venezuela has claimed that the one or more of the strikes occurred within Venezuela's territorial waters, but they haven't made the argument that those boats were actually innocent non-criminal vessels. And once you make that distinction, then yes. The world is fine with blowing up vessels that belong to drug cartels, even if China did it. They probably wouldn't be fine if it was actually refugees, but this does not appear to be the case. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdjzw3gplv7o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdjzw3gplv7o

gadders 1y ago
Tacitly encouraging/aiding drug trafficking is also a low intensity way to have an asymmetric conflict with a much more powerful country. See also Cuba emptying its jails and sending the prisoners to Florida: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/criminals-in-exodus-from-cuba-us-fears-castro-emptying-his-jails-into-florida-1386288.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/criminals-in-exodus-from-...
- lupire 1y ago
  Drugs don't harm the other country, so it doesn't help win any conflict.
  - ungreased0675 1y ago
    Are you familiar with the opium wars?
  - gadders 1y ago
    Have you seen the fentanyl addicts in Philadelphia?
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> It's not that the US is simply "claiming" the vessels belong to a drug cartel, it's that nobody is denying that they were drug vessels. What? The king of England hasn't denied that they're drug smuggling vessels either, it doesn't mean he's admitting they are. I don't understand this logic at all.

lenkite 1y ago

I don't support these strikes since I personally believe the US would be far better served in the long run by arrest and interrogation - and not just a matter of ethical principle. Having said that, all legal vessels have an ID and someone would have complained already about their property and crew being blown up. Its pretty clear they belong to hardcore criminal elements.

IncreasePosts 1y ago
There's probably nothing to interrogate - the dudes driving the boats are probably just random poor farmers that took a pay day from a cartel.
- lenkite 1y ago
  Random poor farmers can't really operate a submarine.
  - vel0city 1y ago
    These kinds of submarines really aren't very complicated to operate. Its not like you're managing a nuclear reactor or anything.
    - lenkite 1y ago
      They are more complicated than you state. Crew need to navigate long distances in open ocean, handle rough weather, and perform docking/unloading. These subs have control systems, ballast tanks and pumps. You need both training and experience. Mismanagement can cause swamping or sinking. The management loses their vessel and their cargo. Basically, "just random poor farmers that took a pay day from a cartel" is simply not possible.
      - vel0city 1y ago
        > Crew need to navigate long distances in open ocean Not incredibly difficult these days with GPS. Especially if they're doing an Atlantic crossing, its not like there's a lot of things to hit. They're all diesel-electrics, they spend a lot of their time practically at the surface. When they need to dive, its usually only for a few hours at a time, a compass heading is good enough for those times especially in the open ocean. Its not like they're trying to read complicated sonar outputs or anything like that. They're not busting out a sextant to figure out their latitude. They also aren't explorers trying to chart out a new path, they're pretty much going to follow the known good routes other boats have gone before. > perform docking/unloading I imagine there are more than just the people operating the boats at the docks. I also don't think it takes a lot of training and skill to pick things up and set things down. And its not like they're having to be some certified harbor pilot bringing in the boat into the shipping lanes, its going to be some little dock off in the middle of nowhere far away from other traffic. They could learn the ropes of how to operate this thing in a few days along with some good basic documentation, assuming the farmers are literate. Its not like its that hard figuring out "this handle makes us dive, this handle makes us go up, don't go deeper than this, make sure batteries stay within this range, follow the GPS route". I'm not saying these couldn't possibly be well-trained people operating these vessels, but it doesn't take too much training to figure out how to operate one of these things.