7 ms·

For me, the power of Emacs is mainly that I can do everything with the keyboard, which is not only much faster, but also - to me - much more enjoyable than goin

by fhd2 11mo ago

For me, the power of Emacs is mainly that I can do everything with the keyboard, which is not only much faster, but also - to me - much more enjoyable than going through visual menus with the mouse. For someone not good with the keyboard, it's probably a nightmare. I suppose it's good for power users and terrible for casual users, and I don't know if there's any way to really build one user interface that works equally well for both, it's usually a compromise. The next best thing I love about Emacs is that I can do anything conceivable with code. This one is an even larger gap between power users and casual users. I think tools like that are just fated to only attract a select few.

timonoko 11mo ago
You can do everything with mouse (or touchscreen). Lets start with these: (xterm-mouse-mode 1) (global-set-key (kbd "<mouse-5>") 'scroll-up-command) (global-set-key (kbd "<mouse-4>") 'scroll-down-command) (global-set-key (kbd "<wheel-up>") 'scroll-up-command) (global-set-key (kbd "<wheel-down>") 'scroll-down-command)
piokoch 11mo ago
Believe or not, you can go 100% keyboard-only even on Windows. I had a friend, Win server admin (big Microsoft fun), who wasn't using mouse at all.
- Aromasin 11mo ago
  You can but that doesn't neccesarily mean you should. I tried it for a while, after seeing my Eve Online friend skipping through tasks at a rate of knots without any mouse movement. My god the amount of tab pressing I had to do to get anything done was crippling. I might have to jump through 15 times to get to something that would take me less than a second to click.
  - cluckindan 11mo ago
    Which is why most programs support alt-hotkeys.
    - antiframe 11mo ago
      Right, but not all, which is what makes unplugging your mouse from Windows painful. On Linux, I often forget to plug my mouse in and only notice when I want to play a game or something.
Karrot_Kream 11mo ago
When I got into emacs 20+ years ago the "use only the keyboard" thing was a huge point of pride and to this day I don't understand why. Who cares? I use emacs because I can code the entire environment. Fundamentally the mouse is just a form of modal editing. Emacs supports this in spades of course, and god-mode is my modal input minor mode of choice, but clicking to jump to a position on screen can often be a lot faster than I search or avy-jump commands, say nothing about how much gentler on the wrist it is. Then you can customize the menus and toolbar icons so you can be 1-2 clicks away from something that would otherwise require a chorded keypress or worse, an M-x command. Then you have the biggest benefit of using the mouse: scrolling around reading code or text while having a drink or snack in the other hand. These days I use a trackball in my left hand. Regardless, the keyboard vs mouse thing always struck me as one of the many dumb flamewars that tech people engage in.
- fhd2 11mo ago
  > Regardless, the keyboard vs mouse thing always struck me as one of the many dumb flamewars that tech people engage in. Certainly. I wouldn't argue that text editing speed is a relevant bottleneck in software development, actually. To me it's enjoyable and that's a big factor in my productivity, but that's just me. My point was mainly that the keyboard (efficient use is difficult to learn) vs mouse (arguably easier to learn) is just one example of why the current desktop metaphor won over something I'd say is designed for heavy keyboard use (even if usable without it). The "code the entire environment" thing you mention is another example. Not sure I expressed that point all that well, rereading my comment it almost looks as if I'm trying to start a flame war :D
  - robenkleene 11mo ago
    > My point was mainly that the keyboard (efficient use is difficult to learn) vs mouse (arguably easier to learn) is just one example of why the current desktop metaphor won over something I'd say is designed for heavy keyboard use (even if usable without it). This comparison of the mouse and keyboard seems to have programmer tunnel vision. Anything involving layout, graphs, media editing (audio, video, image), 3D modeling, and drawing I think we can all agree are better served by the mouse (in tandem with the keyboard). It's really the mouse and keyboard together that's made the computer such a successful creative medium. Programming seems to me like a bit of anomaly in that it's one of the few creative tasks that doesn't benefit greatly from a mouse.
skeezyjefferson 11mo ago
> The next best thing I love about Emacs is that I can do anything conceivable with code. you already could though, no? emacs didnt allow you to execute lisp for the first time
- taeric 11mo ago
  It is more than just that it uses lisp. I do like that, and I think it is the correct choice. But it is more that even something as basic "move cursor down" is not tied directly to a specific key. And the help system will literally take you to the source for any command, if you ask it to. (Takes some setup for this to work down to the c source, but it is there.) Is a bit like having a problem with "ls" and wondering if you could fix it by scanning the source real quick. In emacs, that is often just a keystroke away. In most systems, good luck.

by fhd2 11mo ago

timonoko 11mo ago

You can do everything with mouse (or touchscreen). Lets start with these: (xterm-mouse-mode 1) (global-set-key (kbd "<mouse-5>") 'scroll-up-command) (global-set-key (kbd "<mouse-4>") 'scroll-down-command) (global-set-key (kbd "<wheel-up>") 'scroll-up-command) (global-set-key (kbd "<wheel-down>") 'scroll-down-command)

piokoch 11mo ago

Believe or not, you can go 100% keyboard-only even on Windows. I had a friend, Win server admin (big Microsoft fun), who wasn't using mouse at all.

Aromasin 11mo ago
You can but that doesn't neccesarily mean you should. I tried it for a while, after seeing my Eve Online friend skipping through tasks at a rate of knots without any mouse movement. My god the amount of tab pressing I had to do to get anything done was crippling. I might have to jump through 15 times to get to something that would take me less than a second to click.
- cluckindan 11mo ago
  Which is why most programs support alt-hotkeys.
  - antiframe 11mo ago
    Right, but not all, which is what makes unplugging your mouse from Windows painful. On Linux, I often forget to plug my mouse in and only notice when I want to play a game or something.

Karrot_Kream 11mo ago

When I got into emacs 20+ years ago the "use only the keyboard" thing was a huge point of pride and to this day I don't understand why. Who cares? I use emacs because I can code the entire environment. Fundamentally the mouse is just a form of modal editing. Emacs supports this in spades of course, and god-mode is my modal input minor mode of choice, but clicking to jump to a position on screen can often be a lot faster than I search or avy-jump commands, say nothing about how much gentler on the wrist it is. Then you can customize the menus and toolbar icons so you can be 1-2 clicks away from something that would otherwise require a chorded keypress or worse, an M-x command. Then you have the biggest benefit of using the mouse: scrolling around reading code or text while having a drink or snack in the other hand. These days I use a trackball in my left hand. Regardless, the keyboard vs mouse thing always struck me as one of the many dumb flamewars that tech people engage in.

fhd2 11mo ago
> Regardless, the keyboard vs mouse thing always struck me as one of the many dumb flamewars that tech people engage in. Certainly. I wouldn't argue that text editing speed is a relevant bottleneck in software development, actually. To me it's enjoyable and that's a big factor in my productivity, but that's just me. My point was mainly that the keyboard (efficient use is difficult to learn) vs mouse (arguably easier to learn) is just one example of why the current desktop metaphor won over something I'd say is designed for heavy keyboard use (even if usable without it). The "code the entire environment" thing you mention is another example. Not sure I expressed that point all that well, rereading my comment it almost looks as if I'm trying to start a flame war :D
- robenkleene 11mo ago
  > My point was mainly that the keyboard (efficient use is difficult to learn) vs mouse (arguably easier to learn) is just one example of why the current desktop metaphor won over something I'd say is designed for heavy keyboard use (even if usable without it). This comparison of the mouse and keyboard seems to have programmer tunnel vision. Anything involving layout, graphs, media editing (audio, video, image), 3D modeling, and drawing I think we can all agree are better served by the mouse (in tandem with the keyboard). It's really the mouse and keyboard together that's made the computer such a successful creative medium. Programming seems to me like a bit of anomaly in that it's one of the few creative tasks that doesn't benefit greatly from a mouse.

skeezyjefferson 11mo ago

> The next best thing I love about Emacs is that I can do anything conceivable with code. you already could though, no? emacs didnt allow you to execute lisp for the first time

taeric 11mo ago
It is more than just that it uses lisp. I do like that, and I think it is the correct choice. But it is more that even something as basic "move cursor down" is not tied directly to a specific key. And the help system will literally take you to the source for any command, if you ask it to. (Takes some setup for this to work down to the c source, but it is there.) Is a bit like having a problem with "ls" and wondering if you could fix it by scanning the source real quick. In emacs, that is often just a keystroke away. In most systems, good luck.