4 ms·

Right, and I repeat: if this you arguing with drunk uncles, that's not me. If this is you doing praxis and trying to organize, you are aiming at the wrong targ

by ajross 1y ago

Right, and I repeat: if this you arguing with drunk uncles, that's not me. If this is you doing praxis and trying to organize, you are aiming at the wrong target by trying to engage with your political allies here on HN. Mostly, I suspect, you're just angry and wanting to blow off steam. Which is fine! But not likely to make either of us feel better.

breve 1y ago
I don't see the point in the mental gymnastics to make excuses for Musk. He's plainly not as you wish him to be. It's much better to simply see him as he is. This is how he is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc It's not great.
- ajross 1y ago
  Where do you see me making excuses for Musk? I'm saying I'm happy to drive, buy and recommend a Tesla even if the company is run by a drunk uncle because the other 100,000 of them seem like they worked hard to make a good product. You really think Telsa is the only company with drunk uncles at the helm? Again, the collision of your personal politics with what you want to achieve seems really muddled here. What do you achieve by yelling at me on HN, exactly?
  - breve 1y ago
    Calling him a drunk uncle is making excuses for him.
    - ajross 1y ago
      Only if you take as a prior that he's somehow more objectionable than the like 20% of the electorate that I'm painting as "drunk uncles". And he's... not. He's just rich. Musk doesn't say or do anything you can't see on Fox every day. He doesn't spout opinions you can't read expressed right here on HN in every politics thread (in fact he's a pretty pure distillation of the HN self-righteous libertarian jerk, honestly). And you don't like that. And I don't like that either. But I'm not going to judge him any more severely than I do anyone here. And yeah, I think the cars are pretty great, and the people that make them (to first approximation, none of them are Musk!) deserve to have jobs making successful cars. At the end of the day you need to share society with people you hate. And some of them make products you need or want. This isn't a winnable fight you're engaging in.
      - postflopclarity 1y ago
        > Musk doesn't say or do anything you can't see on Fox every day. He doesn't spout opinions you can't read expressed right here on HN in every politics thread again, he literally threw two Sieg Heils. I don't see that every day.
        ajross 1y ago
        That's a pretty strained "literally". Even taking everything at the worst possible interpretation, it's edgelord fuckery. Not something I'd personally support, but absolutely in the "drunk uncle" category of misbehavior. I think some of the problem is that people aren't exposed to enough drunk uncles to know how awful the electorate can be. Again, we're barely a half century removed from living in a literal[1] segregated society. But the drunk uncles are out there, and you are doing business with them all the time. Picking fights over cars within your own community of like minded people is a shibboleth/proxy argument that does nothing but hurt your cause. [1] Literally literal, in this case.
        postflopclarity 1y ago
        it's really not strained. did you watch the (many) videos? it is a literally literal Nazi salute, twice. > taking everything at the worst possible interpretation wouldn't the "worst possible interpretation" here also equal the simplest possible interpretation, which is that he did two Sieg Heils because he's a Nazi sympathizer? > you are doing business with them all the time I'm really not generally in the habit of supporting the business interests of Nazis, no. just to be clear, if my uncle were a Nazi he would not be welcome in my life, in my home, nor near any of my family. I'm not sure why you're going to so much effort to excuse this behavior.
        ajross 1y ago
        > it is a literally literal Nazi salute, twice It is clearly not, though. It's arguably evocative of one. There is an actual form to the thing, it was a military gyration, and people taught it. You can even read the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute It is static at the end, being held with palm down and arm stretched forward. It does not begin at the heart, as Musk performed, nor swing sideways. Obviously you don't care about this minutiae, but it's important if you want to hang your argument on "literally a Nazi salute". What you and I both agree on is that this was intended to evoke the idea. Where we differ is how you want to interpret it. You, I guess, think it means signaling a desire to repeat the holocaust, or something maybe a little less horrifying. I think it's pretty clear he's wanting to create exactly the argument we're having. To wit, this was a troll, and you fell for it, and now all us lefties look like Ivermectin snorting loons because real people OBVIOUSLY know that Musk isn't a nazi.
  - postflopclarity 1y ago
    you're supporting the business ventures of a literal Nazi. I'm generally not a fan of "cancel culture" but in this case I think a boycott is the only ethical choice.

by ajross 1y ago

breve 1y ago

I don't see the point in the mental gymnastics to make excuses for Musk. He's plainly not as you wish him to be. It's much better to simply see him as he is. This is how he is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc It's not great.

ajross 1y ago
Where do you see me making excuses for Musk? I'm saying I'm happy to drive, buy and recommend a Tesla even if the company is run by a drunk uncle because the other 100,000 of them seem like they worked hard to make a good product. You really think Telsa is the only company with drunk uncles at the helm? Again, the collision of your personal politics with what you want to achieve seems really muddled here. What do you achieve by yelling at me on HN, exactly?
- breve 1y ago
  Calling him a drunk uncle is making excuses for him.
  - ajross 1y ago
    Only if you take as a prior that he's somehow more objectionable than the like 20% of the electorate that I'm painting as "drunk uncles". And he's... not. He's just rich. Musk doesn't say or do anything you can't see on Fox every day. He doesn't spout opinions you can't read expressed right here on HN in every politics thread (in fact he's a pretty pure distillation of the HN self-righteous libertarian jerk, honestly). And you don't like that. And I don't like that either. But I'm not going to judge him any more severely than I do anyone here. And yeah, I think the cars are pretty great, and the people that make them (to first approximation, none of them are Musk!) deserve to have jobs making successful cars. At the end of the day you need to share society with people you hate. And some of them make products you need or want. This isn't a winnable fight you're engaging in.
    - postflopclarity 1y ago
      > Musk doesn't say or do anything you can't see on Fox every day. He doesn't spout opinions you can't read expressed right here on HN in every politics thread again, he literally threw two Sieg Heils. I don't see that every day.
      - ajross 1y ago
        That's a pretty strained "literally". Even taking everything at the worst possible interpretation, it's edgelord fuckery. Not something I'd personally support, but absolutely in the "drunk uncle" category of misbehavior. I think some of the problem is that people aren't exposed to enough drunk uncles to know how awful the electorate can be. Again, we're barely a half century removed from living in a literal[1] segregated society. But the drunk uncles are out there, and you are doing business with them all the time. Picking fights over cars within your own community of like minded people is a shibboleth/proxy argument that does nothing but hurt your cause. [1] Literally literal, in this case.
        postflopclarity 1y ago
        it's really not strained. did you watch the (many) videos? it is a literally literal Nazi salute, twice. > taking everything at the worst possible interpretation wouldn't the "worst possible interpretation" here also equal the simplest possible interpretation, which is that he did two Sieg Heils because he's a Nazi sympathizer? > you are doing business with them all the time I'm really not generally in the habit of supporting the business interests of Nazis, no. just to be clear, if my uncle were a Nazi he would not be welcome in my life, in my home, nor near any of my family. I'm not sure why you're going to so much effort to excuse this behavior.
        ajross 1y ago
        > it is a literally literal Nazi salute, twice It is clearly not, though. It's arguably evocative of one. There is an actual form to the thing, it was a military gyration, and people taught it. You can even read the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute It is static at the end, being held with palm down and arm stretched forward. It does not begin at the heart, as Musk performed, nor swing sideways. Obviously you don't care about this minutiae, but it's important if you want to hang your argument on "literally a Nazi salute". What you and I both agree on is that this was intended to evoke the idea. Where we differ is how you want to interpret it. You, I guess, think it means signaling a desire to repeat the holocaust, or something maybe a little less horrifying. I think it's pretty clear he's wanting to create exactly the argument we're having. To wit, this was a troll, and you fell for it, and now all us lefties look like Ivermectin snorting loons because real people OBVIOUSLY know that Musk isn't a nazi.
- postflopclarity 1y ago
  you're supporting the business ventures of a literal Nazi. I'm generally not a fan of "cancel culture" but in this case I think a boycott is the only ethical choice.