7 ms·

> Thanks to all the entrepreneurs and engineers over the past decades Hat tip also to China's ideological commitment to independence from external oil supplies

by w10-1 1y ago

> Thanks to all the entrepreneurs and engineers over the past decades Hat tip also to China's ideological commitment to independence from external oil supplies, as nicely coupled to reducing pollution and greenwashing their image. It's their citizens who sacrifice to make solar power cheap enough.

badpun 1y ago
Some of the sacrifice is not voluntary - most panels contain parts and/or materials made by slaves in work camps.
- omnimus 1y ago
  Just like iPhones.
  - epistasis 1y ago
    I think it's a bit different, I never heard a story of iPhones being manufactured like this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57124636 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57124636 However most of the "slave" talk these days comes from highly politicized sources, so it's hard to cut through to the truth. For example, it's not likely that there's enough Uyghur slave labor to be involved with "most" of the polysilicon even from Xinjiang, much less the entire world's supply. IMHO, like the cobalt getting mined by children from artisanal-scale mines in Africa, it's a very serious issue that gets trotted out more as a political football against the entire technology, rather than expressed as an earnest concern to solve the underlying problem.
    - bdangubic 1y ago
      > I think it's a bit different nice to discuss the degrees of slavery, little slavery is cool, little more perhaps not as much…
      - vkou 1y ago
        Here in the US, the thirteenth amendment seems to think that a little slavery is cool. As I understand it, much of the rest of the world has similar views, but I'm sure this varies a bit from country to country. It's just that in the 21st century, we prefer to use some less-upsetting euphemism to refer to the practice domestically.
        bdangubic 1y ago
        fascinating reading here on HN every now again someone taking a moral high ground on some random shit while actively using products and services of some of the most evil corporations in the history of mankind
        rmunn 1y ago
        > Here in the US, the thirteenth amendment seems to think that a little slavery is cool. For anyone not familiar with the US Constitution, the 13th Amendment forbids slavery and involuntary servitude "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted." Without that "except as a punishment for [a] crime" clause, being sentenced to N hours of community service would be forbidden by the Constitution, and the second-lowest penalty judges could impose (the lowest being a fine) would be prison time. So that clause was actually necessary to include in order to allow for more lenient sentences for crimes that deserve something more severe than a fine: lowest level of sentencing is a fine, after that comes being sentenced to community service (which most people agree is less severe than prison, even though it does count as involuntary servitude), and then after that come the more severe sentences like prison.
        mattclarkdotnet 1y ago
        Most other countries seem to be able to have community service orders without labelling it “servitude”. Do you have a reference for why community service is defined as servitude in the US?
        rmunn 1y ago
    - aeonfox 1y ago
      > IMHO, like the cobalt getting mined by children from artisanal-scale mines in Africa Not really an issue for solar battery systems as they typically use the cheaper LFP chemistry that has a much higher cycle count. The gravimetric density is a bit less, but that only really matters for high-performance mobility.
      - nandomrumber 1y ago
        You responded to a comment about cobalt with vague references to cell chemistry, cycle count, and energy density. What does any of that have to do with cobalt?
        dgacmu 1y ago
        The post you're replying to didn't explain it well, but: LFP batteries don't use cobalt (or nickel). LFP production is starting to pass NMC (lithium + nickel manganese cobalt oxide). Slightly lower density but a lot of advantages in lack of easily catching on fire, longer lifetime -- and lack of cobalt. LFP (LiFePo4) is the battery chemistry of choice today for solar installations, where the longer lifetime and increased safety are a big win and the slightly lower density doesn't matter, unlike mobile applications.
        aeonfox 1y ago
        I suppose I could have been clearer, but I figure it was an easy connection tom make from talking about chemistry to the question of whether cobalt is even relevant.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- perihelions 1y ago
  I.e., https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/business/economy/solar-xinjiang-china-report.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/business/economy/solar-xi... ("Solar Supply Chain Grows More Opaque Amid Human Rights Concerns" / "The global industry is cutting some ties to China, but its exposure to forced labor remains high and companies are less transparent, a new report found")
baxtr 1y ago
Like anything else that the world procures cheaply from China btw.
- epolanski 1y ago
  At this point this is a cliche. There's tons of countries with much cheaper labor. The reasons we build in china are not related to cheap labor, this hasn't been the case from quite some time.
  - hattmall 1y ago
    Cheap labor is still a major factor, but infrastructure is definitely another.
    - nandomrumber 1y ago
      And trust, probably the most valuable commodity. Three or four decades of proven ability to deliver, trusted relationships. Even despite all the political noise.
      - typpilol 1y ago
        The industry basically treats any designs sent to China as a loss since they know it will be duplicated I don't think trust has much to do with it
        gffrd 1y ago
        I believe Parent is talking about trust in the ability to deliver on promises, not in handling of IP.
        typpilol 1y ago
        Oh I agree. But I'd say trust is the wrong word They're reliable, but would you really trust them? I think there's a bit of nuance there to differentiate the 2 though. Maybe I'm jaded from working with overseas factories though in ways others wouldn't be.
metalman 1y ago
the vast majority of solar panels are imaculately concieved in fully automated factorys,some where in fact there are NO people and they turn the lights off, as the robots are blind to those frequencys anyway. surviving solar PV production facilities operate on razor thin margins, and gargantuan volumes, the results of which are the electrification of most of the world, useing the absolute minimum of carbon. first lights, and dev8ces, small appliences, then the next step will be universal access to clean water and refrigeration, and then the worlds largest continent will be something to recon with.
- zer00eyz 1y ago
  > the vast majority of solar panels are imaculately concieved in fully automated factorys What? https://insights.issgovernance.com/posts/forced-labor-in-the-solar-supply-chain-concerns-about-the-transition-to-renewables/ https://insights.issgovernance.com/posts/forced-labor-in-the... Yes there is a bunch of automation in there, and still a ton of manual work and re-work. And it is done by the lowest cost labor, with a hefty government subsidy (by china) and a purchasing program.
  - cyberax 1y ago
    This is pretty much bunk. There really is _very_ little space for manual unqualified work in solar panel manufacturing. Does the supply chain contain less-than-free labor somewhere? Likely. Most probably somewhere in the raw material production, but it's not something that is a deciding factor in anything. These materials just as well likely go into making of iPhones and Lenovo laptops.
    - zer00eyz 1y ago
      Unloading, Frame assemblies, testing, Cleanup of any failed products (this is skilled labor)... Packaging and loading. This is at the plant that does panel assembly (joining silicon to packaging). The problem is that "Highly automated" does not mean "free of people" ... the demand for low skill labor (and a fair amount of it to keep up with automated processes) is still required. The cost of labor in china remains so low (on the whole) that these things are still not only feasible but cost effective.
AuthAuth 1y ago
I dont think China deserves that hat tip. Their "commitment" was done years after all the major nations had committed to emissions reduction and seems to have only been done so they could sell the solution. They've made little attempt to reduce emissions and instead scaled their industrial base to capitalize on the demand from nations working to reduce their carbon footprint. The only thing they've done to greenwash their image is spend money buying articles that present the false image of a green china.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  This isn't factually accurate at all, and I would encourage some research so your statements can be more accurate. https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/china-energy-transition-review-2025/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/china-energy-transi... https://ember-energy.org/latest-updates/wind-and-solar-generate-over-a-quarter-of-chinas-electricity-for-the-first-month-on-record/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-updates/wind-and-solar-gener... https://electrek.co/2025/09/02/h1-2025-china-installs-more-solar-than-rest-of-the-world-combined/ https://electrek.co/2025/09/02/h1-2025-china-installs-more-s... > Global solar installations are breaking records again in 2025. In H1 2025, the world added 380 gigawatts (GW) of new solar capacity – a staggering 64% jump compared to the same period in 2024, when 232 GW came online. China was responsible for installing a massive 256 GW of that solar capacity. For context, it took until September last year to pass the 350 GW mark. This year, the milestone was achieved in June. That pace cements solar as the fastest-growing source of new electricity generation worldwide. In 2024, global solar output rose by 28% (+469 terawatt-hours) from 2023, more growth than any other energy source. Nicolas Fulghum, senior energy analyst at independent energy think tank Ember, said, “These latest numbers on solar deployment in 2025 defy gravity, with annual solar installations continuing their sharp rise. In a world of volatile energy markets, solar offers domestically produced power that can be rolled out at record speed to meet growing demand, independent of global fossil fuel supply chains.” https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65064 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65064 > Utility-scale solar power capacity in China reached more than 880 gigawatts (GW) in 2024, according to China’s National Energy Administration. China has more utility-scale solar than any other country. The 277 GW of utility-scale solar capacity installed in China in 2024 alone is more than twice as much as the 121 GW of utility-scale solar capacity installed in the United States at the end of 2024. Planned solar capacity projects will likely lead to continued growth in China’s solar capacity. More than 720 GW of solar capacity are in development: about 250 GW under construction, nearly 300 GW in pre-construction phases, and 177 GW of announced projects, according to the Global Solar Power Tracker compiled by Global Energy Monitor. https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/20/chinas-coal-generation-dropped-5-yoy-in-q1-as-electricity-demand-increased/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/20/chinas-coal-generation-... > China’s coal-fired electricity generation took an unexpectedly sharp turn downward in the first quarter of 2025, signaling a potentially profound shift in the world’s largest coal-consuming economy. This wasn’t merely a seasonal dip or economic distress signal; rather, it represented a clear and structural turning point. Coal generation fell by approximately 4.7% year over year, significantly outpacing the overall grid electricity supply decline of just 1.3%. However, electricity demand, a better measure, went up by 1%. What gives? https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/08/21/china-clean-renewable-energy-coal-plants-emissions/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/08/21/china-clean-renewable-e... > China’s Decarbonization Is So Fast Even New Coal Plants Aren’t Stopping It. In multiple sectors—transportation, renewable energy, and overall electrification—the clear trend is toward a greener energy system. In fact, in areas like renewables and electric vehicles, China is now the world’s leading player. With the United States essentially abandoning the field, it will become even more dominant. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/26/china-breaks-more-records-with-massive-build-up-of-wind-and-solar-power https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/26/china-breaks-m... > China’s installations of wind and solar in May are enough to generate as much electricity as Poland, as the world’s second-biggest economy breaks further records with its rapid buildup of renewable energy infrastructure. China installed 93 GW of solar capacity last month – almost 100 solar panels every second, according to an analysis by Lauri Myllyvirta, a senior fellow at the Asia Society Policy Institute. Wind power installations reached 26 GW, the equivalent of about 5,300 turbines. (it is somewhat irrelevant that China has accomplished spinning up a clean tech machine of this scale out of energy security reasons, as it still accomplishes the goal of decarbonizing their economy first, and then, the rest of the world as their spun up manufacturing flywheel exports cheap clean tech to the world) https://ember-energy.org/data/china-cleantech-exports-data-explorer/ https://ember-energy.org/data/china-cleantech-exports-data-e...
mensetmanusman 1y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- petesergeant 1y ago
  Right, but you can switch an EV to a clean source of energy in the future, which you can't do with a petrol car (until carbon-capture fuel becomes viable)
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    No one is arguing that’s not obviously the case. Just reminding that coal is still king in China. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...
- pcchristie 1y ago
  This is a myth: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths Because of the efficiency of the EV motor vs. the ICE motor, EVs are far cleaner than ICEVs even when fossil-fuel-powered and that's not factoring in the (slow) cleaning of the grid which will widen that gap over time, as the other comment mentioned.
- ViewTrick1002 1y ago
  Since the beginning of 2025 coal usage has started to decline in absolute numbers in China. China builds enough renewables and storage to both absorb grid growth and displace existing coal plants.
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    Rate is at a ten year high. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...
chithanh 1y ago
> It's their citizens who sacrifice to make solar power cheap enough. No. Manufacturing labor cost in China is not cheap. In fact since 2012 or so, it is more expensive than in most of Asia. Companies who want cheap labor look elsewhere. https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-are-eyeing-asian-alternatives-to-chinese-manufacturing https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-a... (Archive link: https://archive.fo/tdhXJ https://archive.fo/tdhXJ ) China is also the only major economy where wages have increased at the same rate as GDP in the last 40 or so years.
- adrianN 1y ago
  Solar panel construction is very easy to automate, I don’t think labor is a big driver of cost.
  - myrmidon 1y ago
    Labor is always a big driver of cost, because you need to plan, build, maintain and operate those factories with humans even if fully automated, and a lot of the indirect costs is going to scale with the price of labor, too (local legal representation, transport/logistics, ...)
- myrmidon 1y ago
  Median wage in urban China is about $20k/year. That is objectively dirt-cheap compared to basically all of the west. Yes, wages might be even cheaper in neighboring countries, but those lag behind in infrastructure, education, political stability, availability of capital and network effects from existing industry (and are thus not a viable alternative to China yet for lots of things).
  - chithanh 1y ago
    Manufacturing labor cost in China has surpassed parts of Eastern Europe. I agree that infrastructure, supply chains, political stability, and education are the primary drivers for attracting manufacturing to China.

by w10-1 1y ago

badpun 1y ago

Some of the sacrifice is not voluntary - most panels contain parts and/or materials made by slaves in work camps.

omnimus 1y ago
Just like iPhones.
- epistasis 1y ago
  I think it's a bit different, I never heard a story of iPhones being manufactured like this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57124636 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57124636 However most of the "slave" talk these days comes from highly politicized sources, so it's hard to cut through to the truth. For example, it's not likely that there's enough Uyghur slave labor to be involved with "most" of the polysilicon even from Xinjiang, much less the entire world's supply. IMHO, like the cobalt getting mined by children from artisanal-scale mines in Africa, it's a very serious issue that gets trotted out more as a political football against the entire technology, rather than expressed as an earnest concern to solve the underlying problem.
  - bdangubic 1y ago
    > I think it's a bit different nice to discuss the degrees of slavery, little slavery is cool, little more perhaps not as much…
    - vkou 1y ago
      Here in the US, the thirteenth amendment seems to think that a little slavery is cool. As I understand it, much of the rest of the world has similar views, but I'm sure this varies a bit from country to country. It's just that in the 21st century, we prefer to use some less-upsetting euphemism to refer to the practice domestically.
      - bdangubic 1y ago
        fascinating reading here on HN every now again someone taking a moral high ground on some random shit while actively using products and services of some of the most evil corporations in the history of mankind
      - rmunn 1y ago
        > Here in the US, the thirteenth amendment seems to think that a little slavery is cool. For anyone not familiar with the US Constitution, the 13th Amendment forbids slavery and involuntary servitude "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted." Without that "except as a punishment for [a] crime" clause, being sentenced to N hours of community service would be forbidden by the Constitution, and the second-lowest penalty judges could impose (the lowest being a fine) would be prison time. So that clause was actually necessary to include in order to allow for more lenient sentences for crimes that deserve something more severe than a fine: lowest level of sentencing is a fine, after that comes being sentenced to community service (which most people agree is less severe than prison, even though it does count as involuntary servitude), and then after that come the more severe sentences like prison.
        mattclarkdotnet 1y ago
        Most other countries seem to be able to have community service orders without labelling it “servitude”. Do you have a reference for why community service is defined as servitude in the US?
        rmunn 1y ago
  - aeonfox 1y ago
    > IMHO, like the cobalt getting mined by children from artisanal-scale mines in Africa Not really an issue for solar battery systems as they typically use the cheaper LFP chemistry that has a much higher cycle count. The gravimetric density is a bit less, but that only really matters for high-performance mobility.
    - nandomrumber 1y ago
      You responded to a comment about cobalt with vague references to cell chemistry, cycle count, and energy density. What does any of that have to do with cobalt?
      - dgacmu 1y ago
        The post you're replying to didn't explain it well, but: LFP batteries don't use cobalt (or nickel). LFP production is starting to pass NMC (lithium + nickel manganese cobalt oxide). Slightly lower density but a lot of advantages in lack of easily catching on fire, longer lifetime -- and lack of cobalt. LFP (LiFePo4) is the battery chemistry of choice today for solar installations, where the longer lifetime and increased safety are a big win and the slightly lower density doesn't matter, unlike mobile applications.
        aeonfox 1y ago
        I suppose I could have been clearer, but I figure it was an easy connection tom make from talking about chemistry to the question of whether cobalt is even relevant.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
perihelions 1y ago
I.e., https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/business/economy/solar-xinjiang-china-report.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/business/economy/solar-xi... ("Solar Supply Chain Grows More Opaque Amid Human Rights Concerns" / "The global industry is cutting some ties to China, but its exposure to forced labor remains high and companies are less transparent, a new report found")

baxtr 1y ago

Like anything else that the world procures cheaply from China btw.

epolanski 1y ago
At this point this is a cliche. There's tons of countries with much cheaper labor. The reasons we build in china are not related to cheap labor, this hasn't been the case from quite some time.
- hattmall 1y ago
  Cheap labor is still a major factor, but infrastructure is definitely another.
  - nandomrumber 1y ago
    And trust, probably the most valuable commodity. Three or four decades of proven ability to deliver, trusted relationships. Even despite all the political noise.
    - typpilol 1y ago
      The industry basically treats any designs sent to China as a loss since they know it will be duplicated I don't think trust has much to do with it
      - gffrd 1y ago
        I believe Parent is talking about trust in the ability to deliver on promises, not in handling of IP.
        typpilol 1y ago
        Oh I agree. But I'd say trust is the wrong word They're reliable, but would you really trust them? I think there's a bit of nuance there to differentiate the 2 though. Maybe I'm jaded from working with overseas factories though in ways others wouldn't be.

metalman 1y ago

the vast majority of solar panels are imaculately concieved in fully automated factorys,some where in fact there are NO people and they turn the lights off, as the robots are blind to those frequencys anyway. surviving solar PV production facilities operate on razor thin margins, and gargantuan volumes, the results of which are the electrification of most of the world, useing the absolute minimum of carbon. first lights, and dev8ces, small appliences, then the next step will be universal access to clean water and refrigeration, and then the worlds largest continent will be something to recon with.

zer00eyz 1y ago
> the vast majority of solar panels are imaculately concieved in fully automated factorys What? https://insights.issgovernance.com/posts/forced-labor-in-the-solar-supply-chain-concerns-about-the-transition-to-renewables/ https://insights.issgovernance.com/posts/forced-labor-in-the... Yes there is a bunch of automation in there, and still a ton of manual work and re-work. And it is done by the lowest cost labor, with a hefty government subsidy (by china) and a purchasing program.
- cyberax 1y ago
  This is pretty much bunk. There really is _very_ little space for manual unqualified work in solar panel manufacturing. Does the supply chain contain less-than-free labor somewhere? Likely. Most probably somewhere in the raw material production, but it's not something that is a deciding factor in anything. These materials just as well likely go into making of iPhones and Lenovo laptops.
  - zer00eyz 1y ago
    Unloading, Frame assemblies, testing, Cleanup of any failed products (this is skilled labor)... Packaging and loading. This is at the plant that does panel assembly (joining silicon to packaging). The problem is that "Highly automated" does not mean "free of people" ... the demand for low skill labor (and a fair amount of it to keep up with automated processes) is still required. The cost of labor in china remains so low (on the whole) that these things are still not only feasible but cost effective.

AuthAuth 1y ago

I dont think China deserves that hat tip. Their "commitment" was done years after all the major nations had committed to emissions reduction and seems to have only been done so they could sell the solution. They've made little attempt to reduce emissions and instead scaled their industrial base to capitalize on the demand from nations working to reduce their carbon footprint. The only thing they've done to greenwash their image is spend money buying articles that present the false image of a green china.

toomuchtodo 1y ago
This isn't factually accurate at all, and I would encourage some research so your statements can be more accurate. https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/china-energy-transition-review-2025/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/china-energy-transi... https://ember-energy.org/latest-updates/wind-and-solar-generate-over-a-quarter-of-chinas-electricity-for-the-first-month-on-record/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-updates/wind-and-solar-gener... https://electrek.co/2025/09/02/h1-2025-china-installs-more-solar-than-rest-of-the-world-combined/ https://electrek.co/2025/09/02/h1-2025-china-installs-more-s... > Global solar installations are breaking records again in 2025. In H1 2025, the world added 380 gigawatts (GW) of new solar capacity – a staggering 64% jump compared to the same period in 2024, when 232 GW came online. China was responsible for installing a massive 256 GW of that solar capacity. For context, it took until September last year to pass the 350 GW mark. This year, the milestone was achieved in June. That pace cements solar as the fastest-growing source of new electricity generation worldwide. In 2024, global solar output rose by 28% (+469 terawatt-hours) from 2023, more growth than any other energy source. Nicolas Fulghum, senior energy analyst at independent energy think tank Ember, said, “These latest numbers on solar deployment in 2025 defy gravity, with annual solar installations continuing their sharp rise. In a world of volatile energy markets, solar offers domestically produced power that can be rolled out at record speed to meet growing demand, independent of global fossil fuel supply chains.” https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65064 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65064 > Utility-scale solar power capacity in China reached more than 880 gigawatts (GW) in 2024, according to China’s National Energy Administration. China has more utility-scale solar than any other country. The 277 GW of utility-scale solar capacity installed in China in 2024 alone is more than twice as much as the 121 GW of utility-scale solar capacity installed in the United States at the end of 2024. Planned solar capacity projects will likely lead to continued growth in China’s solar capacity. More than 720 GW of solar capacity are in development: about 250 GW under construction, nearly 300 GW in pre-construction phases, and 177 GW of announced projects, according to the Global Solar Power Tracker compiled by Global Energy Monitor. https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/20/chinas-coal-generation-dropped-5-yoy-in-q1-as-electricity-demand-increased/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/20/chinas-coal-generation-... > China’s coal-fired electricity generation took an unexpectedly sharp turn downward in the first quarter of 2025, signaling a potentially profound shift in the world’s largest coal-consuming economy. This wasn’t merely a seasonal dip or economic distress signal; rather, it represented a clear and structural turning point. Coal generation fell by approximately 4.7% year over year, significantly outpacing the overall grid electricity supply decline of just 1.3%. However, electricity demand, a better measure, went up by 1%. What gives? https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/08/21/china-clean-renewable-energy-coal-plants-emissions/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/08/21/china-clean-renewable-e... > China’s Decarbonization Is So Fast Even New Coal Plants Aren’t Stopping It. In multiple sectors—transportation, renewable energy, and overall electrification—the clear trend is toward a greener energy system. In fact, in areas like renewables and electric vehicles, China is now the world’s leading player. With the United States essentially abandoning the field, it will become even more dominant. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/26/china-breaks-more-records-with-massive-build-up-of-wind-and-solar-power https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/26/china-breaks-m... > China’s installations of wind and solar in May are enough to generate as much electricity as Poland, as the world’s second-biggest economy breaks further records with its rapid buildup of renewable energy infrastructure. China installed 93 GW of solar capacity last month – almost 100 solar panels every second, according to an analysis by Lauri Myllyvirta, a senior fellow at the Asia Society Policy Institute. Wind power installations reached 26 GW, the equivalent of about 5,300 turbines. (it is somewhat irrelevant that China has accomplished spinning up a clean tech machine of this scale out of energy security reasons, as it still accomplishes the goal of decarbonizing their economy first, and then, the rest of the world as their spun up manufacturing flywheel exports cheap clean tech to the world) https://ember-energy.org/data/china-cleantech-exports-data-explorer/ https://ember-energy.org/data/china-cleantech-exports-data-e...

mensetmanusman 1y ago

[flagged]

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
petesergeant 1y ago
Right, but you can switch an EV to a clean source of energy in the future, which you can't do with a petrol car (until carbon-capture fuel becomes viable)
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  No one is arguing that’s not obviously the case. Just reminding that coal is still king in China. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...
pcchristie 1y ago
This is a myth: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths Because of the efficiency of the EV motor vs. the ICE motor, EVs are far cleaner than ICEVs even when fossil-fuel-powered and that's not factoring in the (slow) cleaning of the grid which will widen that gap over time, as the other comment mentioned.
ViewTrick1002 1y ago
Since the beginning of 2025 coal usage has started to decline in absolute numbers in China. China builds enough renewables and storage to both absorb grid growth and displace existing coal plants.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  Rate is at a ten year high. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...

chithanh 1y ago

> It's their citizens who sacrifice to make solar power cheap enough. No. Manufacturing labor cost in China is not cheap. In fact since 2012 or so, it is more expensive than in most of Asia. Companies who want cheap labor look elsewhere. https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-are-eyeing-asian-alternatives-to-chinese-manufacturing https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-a... (Archive link: https://archive.fo/tdhXJ https://archive.fo/tdhXJ ) China is also the only major economy where wages have increased at the same rate as GDP in the last 40 or so years.

adrianN 1y ago
Solar panel construction is very easy to automate, I don’t think labor is a big driver of cost.
- myrmidon 1y ago
  Labor is always a big driver of cost, because you need to plan, build, maintain and operate those factories with humans even if fully automated, and a lot of the indirect costs is going to scale with the price of labor, too (local legal representation, transport/logistics, ...)
myrmidon 1y ago
Median wage in urban China is about $20k/year. That is objectively dirt-cheap compared to basically all of the west. Yes, wages might be even cheaper in neighboring countries, but those lag behind in infrastructure, education, political stability, availability of capital and network effects from existing industry (and are thus not a viable alternative to China yet for lots of things).
- chithanh 1y ago
  Manufacturing labor cost in China has surpassed parts of Eastern Europe. I agree that infrastructure, supply chains, political stability, and education are the primary drivers for attracting manufacturing to China.