4 ms·

Ask HN: Why not make universal basic income conditional on the crime rate?

1 points by amichail 1y ago

If the crime rate rises above a certain level, UBI stops for everyone until it goes back down. Do you think this would be a good way to keep the crime rate low in a city/country with UBI?

allears 1y ago
God no. The people who need the benefit don't have the ability to bring down the crime rate, so it's not an incentive. And the "crime rate" is a statistic that is poorly reported and can be easily manipulated. This just sounds like "behave or go to bed without dinner."
bigyabai 1y ago
How do you expect collective punishment to reduce the desire for crime?
bdangubic 1y ago
the opposite of this would be a better idea, more criming, more money
deleted 1y ago
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PaulHoule 1y ago
I'm inclined to think of https://morbidology.com/the-town-that-got-away-with-murder/ https://morbidology.com/the-town-that-got-away-with-murder/ I was talking to my wife the other day and she was testing a rather hard position which was that in traditional cultures disabled or crazy people were probably often quietly killed (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Mice_and_Men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Mice_and_Men) You could imagine that a society that thinks that way could be well organized into vigilante groups that would eliminate crime by eliminating criminals. From the viewpoint of our society that seems terrible problematic (do they kill deaf people? all non-conformists? gay people?) but if our civilization collapses the survivors will turn their back on everything it stood for and the next nation might start with a bill of responsibilities rather than a bill of rights.
- cindyllm 1y ago
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k310 1y ago
"Crime Rate" has been used as a proxy or dogwhistle for non-white neighborhoods. Currently, there is deployment of federal troops to "blue" cities with imaginary high crime rates, which are actually low. Truth is in short supply lately. High crime may be associated with economically depressed areas, but how about fixing that problem rather than a symptom? UBI may help do that by raising the floor, giving people more purchasing power.
throwaway94275 1y ago
No, people will just stop reporting it. It might increase crime.
cindyllm 1y ago
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tharga8616 1y ago
No, UBI is unconditional by definition. Crime reduction is indeed one of the outcomes of UBI experiments.
8474_s 1y ago
Crime is mostly individual and income-driven, so its both not community-policed and inversely proportional to income level. Laws against crime require police to effectively enforce them, as community cannot "reduce crime" without significant investment and focus on it(police is significantly more effective vs vigilantes/citizen patrols). Whichever this scheme tries to do, is effectively collective punishment for community not allocating resources for policing itself.
dragonwriter 1y ago
> Why not make universal basic income conditional on the crime rate? There are lots of good answers for why not to do this, but the simplest that is sufficiently decisive, I think, is Goodhart's Law. > Do you think this would be a good way to keep the crime rate low in a city/country with UBI? It would be a good way to make the official crime rate track the UBI-related policy preferences of whatever authority was in charge of crime statistics.

1 points by amichail 1y ago

If the crime rate rises above a certain level, UBI stops for everyone until it goes back down. Do you think this would be a good way to keep the crime rate low in a city/country with UBI?

allears 1y ago

God no. The people who need the benefit don't have the ability to bring down the crime rate, so it's not an incentive. And the "crime rate" is a statistic that is poorly reported and can be easily manipulated. This just sounds like "behave or go to bed without dinner."

bigyabai 1y ago

How do you expect collective punishment to reduce the desire for crime?

bdangubic 1y ago

the opposite of this would be a better idea, more criming, more money

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

PaulHoule 1y ago

I'm inclined to think of https://morbidology.com/the-town-that-got-away-with-murder/ https://morbidology.com/the-town-that-got-away-with-murder/ I was talking to my wife the other day and she was testing a rather hard position which was that in traditional cultures disabled or crazy people were probably often quietly killed (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Mice_and_Men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Mice_and_Men) You could imagine that a society that thinks that way could be well organized into vigilante groups that would eliminate crime by eliminating criminals. From the viewpoint of our society that seems terrible problematic (do they kill deaf people? all non-conformists? gay people?) but if our civilization collapses the survivors will turn their back on everything it stood for and the next nation might start with a bill of responsibilities rather than a bill of rights.

cindyllm 1y ago
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k310 1y ago

"Crime Rate" has been used as a proxy or dogwhistle for non-white neighborhoods. Currently, there is deployment of federal troops to "blue" cities with imaginary high crime rates, which are actually low. Truth is in short supply lately. High crime may be associated with economically depressed areas, but how about fixing that problem rather than a symptom? UBI may help do that by raising the floor, giving people more purchasing power.

throwaway94275 1y ago

No, people will just stop reporting it. It might increase crime.

cindyllm 1y ago

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deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

deleted 1y ago

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tharga8616 1y ago

No, UBI is unconditional by definition. Crime reduction is indeed one of the outcomes of UBI experiments.

8474_s 1y ago

Crime is mostly individual and income-driven, so its both not community-policed and inversely proportional to income level. Laws against crime require police to effectively enforce them, as community cannot "reduce crime" without significant investment and focus on it(police is significantly more effective vs vigilantes/citizen patrols). Whichever this scheme tries to do, is effectively collective punishment for community not allocating resources for policing itself.

dragonwriter 1y ago

> Why not make universal basic income conditional on the crime rate? There are lots of good answers for why not to do this, but the simplest that is sufficiently decisive, I think, is Goodhart's Law. > Do you think this would be a good way to keep the crime rate low in a city/country with UBI? It would be a good way to make the official crime rate track the UBI-related policy preferences of whatever authority was in charge of crime statistics.