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The whole concept of “third party App Store” is just to add friction to the whole thing. Alice wants to use a program made by Bob. Apple won’t allow Alice to d

The whole concept of “third party App Store” is just to add friction to the whole thing. Alice wants to use a program made by Bob. Apple won’t allow Alice to do so unless Bob pays a fee to Apple. With third party app stores, they’re just allowing _different_ middlemen. What we actually want is to be rid of middlemen imposing arbitrary restrictions on how Alice can use her own device.

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
> What we actually want is to be rid of middlemen imposing arbitrary restrictions on how Alice can use her own device Isn’t it difficult to do this without rolling out a welcome mat for NSO et al?
- selfhoster11 11mo ago
  I don't see the problem here. Nobody should be able to install or disallow installation of software on a device except for the end user.
  - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
    > Nobody should be able to install or disallow installation of software on a device except for the end user This is a value statement. There is more public concern and support for security and freedom to use commercial software than there is for using it as a Stallmanesque general-purpose computer.
  - sneak 11mo ago
    End users aren’t phone experts, and a huge portion of end users would like to completely delegate this decision to phone security experts at their handset manufacturer.
    - CamperBob2 11mo ago
      And nobody is trying to stop them. I'm not your grandma, though, and I'll thank you (and Apple) for not treating me as if I were.
      - sneak 11mo ago
        Yes, Apple is offering this product. Sideloading blows a hole in that security guarantee
        CamperBob2 11mo ago
        The goddamn halting problem blows a hole in that "security guarantee," but never mind that.
- dudeinjapan 11mo ago
  I, for one, won’t be installing anything from the NSO Store. Sure, call me paranoid, but I just don’t trust it.
TulliusCicero 11mo ago
Sideloading is nice and good but realistically most users are just gonna go to app stores, because they make things easy and convenient.
sneak 11mo ago
Users actively don’t want that. This is how millions of users get malware on their phones.
- wavemode 11mo ago
  Then just... don't do it? Nobody is forcing you to install third-party apps.
  - jajuuka 11mo ago
    It's a weird knee-jerk reaction from some people to claim to sideloading = malware. Especially on the Apple side. It's like they saw Android malware clickbait headlines and just ran with it for decades.
dec0dedab0de 11mo ago
I prefer middlemen, especially for something like a phone. But even on a server I would rather be limited to using the OS packages from official repositories, and have a process in place if i need to compile something myself, I also think that process should be more involved than simply running as root. I am afraid that making it too easy to install anything you want on modern smartphones is going to be a problem. Imagine how many are going to end up in botnets.
- baby_souffle 11mo ago
  > I am afraid that making it too easy to install anything you want on modern smartphones is going to be a problem. Imagine how many are going to end up in botnets. Android _already_ has this problem. It takes a few extra taps / coaching to get somebody to install an arbitrary and malicious APK but it's doable now. Moving towards a "if google didn't sign it and distribute it, you shall not run it" future won't really prevent the ignorant laity from installing malware regardless. The rest of us, however, are going to get screwed.
  - ffsm8 11mo ago
    > takes a few extra taps / coaching to get somebody to install an arbitrary and malicious APK but it's doable now. It does? Last I checked you just had to click install for a f2p mobile game on the Play store and voila, you're an exit node for various botnets
graemep 11mo ago
Different middlemen is not a problem because users can decide which ones to use. Not happy with the restriction one imposes? Use a different one. Either Bob or Alice could set up an app store if this is done right.

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago

> What we actually want is to be rid of middlemen imposing arbitrary restrictions on how Alice can use her own device Isn’t it difficult to do this without rolling out a welcome mat for NSO et al?

selfhoster11 11mo ago
I don't see the problem here. Nobody should be able to install or disallow installation of software on a device except for the end user.
- JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
  > Nobody should be able to install or disallow installation of software on a device except for the end user This is a value statement. There is more public concern and support for security and freedom to use commercial software than there is for using it as a Stallmanesque general-purpose computer.
- sneak 11mo ago
  End users aren’t phone experts, and a huge portion of end users would like to completely delegate this decision to phone security experts at their handset manufacturer.
  - CamperBob2 11mo ago
    And nobody is trying to stop them. I'm not your grandma, though, and I'll thank you (and Apple) for not treating me as if I were.
    - sneak 11mo ago
      Yes, Apple is offering this product. Sideloading blows a hole in that security guarantee
      - CamperBob2 11mo ago
        The goddamn halting problem blows a hole in that "security guarantee," but never mind that.
dudeinjapan 11mo ago
I, for one, won’t be installing anything from the NSO Store. Sure, call me paranoid, but I just don’t trust it.

TulliusCicero 11mo ago

Sideloading is nice and good but realistically most users are just gonna go to app stores, because they make things easy and convenient.

sneak 11mo ago

Users actively don’t want that. This is how millions of users get malware on their phones.

wavemode 11mo ago
Then just... don't do it? Nobody is forcing you to install third-party apps.
- jajuuka 11mo ago
  It's a weird knee-jerk reaction from some people to claim to sideloading = malware. Especially on the Apple side. It's like they saw Android malware clickbait headlines and just ran with it for decades.

dec0dedab0de 11mo ago

I prefer middlemen, especially for something like a phone. But even on a server I would rather be limited to using the OS packages from official repositories, and have a process in place if i need to compile something myself, I also think that process should be more involved than simply running as root. I am afraid that making it too easy to install anything you want on modern smartphones is going to be a problem. Imagine how many are going to end up in botnets.

baby_souffle 11mo ago
> I am afraid that making it too easy to install anything you want on modern smartphones is going to be a problem. Imagine how many are going to end up in botnets. Android _already_ has this problem. It takes a few extra taps / coaching to get somebody to install an arbitrary and malicious APK but it's doable now. Moving towards a "if google didn't sign it and distribute it, you shall not run it" future won't really prevent the ignorant laity from installing malware regardless. The rest of us, however, are going to get screwed.
- ffsm8 11mo ago
  > takes a few extra taps / coaching to get somebody to install an arbitrary and malicious APK but it's doable now. It does? Last I checked you just had to click install for a f2p mobile game on the Play store and voila, you're an exit node for various botnets

graemep 11mo ago

Different middlemen is not a problem because users can decide which ones to use. Not happy with the restriction one imposes? Use a different one. Either Bob or Alice could set up an app store if this is done right.