4 ms·

> I think the European Commission is threading the needle, trying to find a path to uphold the DMA/DSA while not provoking another tariff war. The EC is also u

> I think the European Commission is threading the needle, trying to find a path to uphold the DMA/DSA while not provoking another tariff war. The EC is also under a lot of internal pressure from member states to calm down on the regulation, as it's considered one reason why Europe is such a bad place to do a tech startup right now.

user_7832 1y ago
> The EC is also under a lot of internal pressure from member states to calm down on the regulation, as it's considered one reason why Europe is such a bad place to do a tech startup right now. Turns out then using private data for ads (Google) and acting like a middleman (Apple) are apparently lucrative and worth money? (This isn't a critique to you OP or your comment, but rather a commentary on the 21st century.)
- JustExAWS 1y ago
  And amazingly they never considered Spotify a gatekeeper. I wonder what makes Spotify different? It couldn’t be because they are a European company?
  - yupyupyups 1y ago
    You wonder what makes Spotify different from the iOS AppStore?
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    It was too small at the time the law came into force. It's actually just about big enough now (market cap 110bn). That said, it's not at all clear that it's a gatekeeper in the sense that, say, Apple or Google are; it's mostly just one reseller of many of other peoples' stuff, and most Spotify users aren't forced to use it. It's just hard to see how it poses the same sort of competition problem. (You could maybe make a _vague_ argument based on podcast exclusives, but it seems like pushing it a bit.) The really puzzling one to me is TikTok, which is included but feels like it barely meets the criteria.
    - JustExAWS 1y ago
      What artist can get away without being on Spotify? There are really only two music streaming services that are important - Apple Music and Spotify. Just like there are only two app stores that are important - iOS and Android. Spotify has a much larger market share in streaming music than Apple has in smartphones in Europe. Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? (True you either have to either use your computer or the iOS GarageBand hack)
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        > Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? That would only matter, if the device wouldn't allow to play music in another application.
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    You can use devices just fine without Spotify? You can have access to music without Spotify? What is Spotify the gatekeeper to?
    - JustExAWS 11mo ago
      The EU is not concerned with users in this case they are worried about developers having to deal with a monopsony and trying to make the mobile market more open to competition for developers. Spotify is the same gatekeeper for musicians.
      - 1718627440 11mo ago
        If the market is selling music, musicians can sell CDs just fine without Spotify. On performances I went to, nearly everyone has offered buying or ordering CDs, while only a few have told that you can listen to them on Spotify.
        JustExAWS 11mo ago
        And people can communicate without using Facebook, search without using Google etc and they are still considered “Gatekeepers”. And who listens to CDs anymore or even has a CD player in their car or on their computer? How do you get the music on your phone? I was in Seattle a couple of years ago walking around and someone was selling CDs of their music on the street like it was the early 2000s. WTF am I going to do with a CD? Do people carry around CD Walkman’s anymore? But you’re not going to be a major artist and get wide appeal or even gain an audience without being on Spotify - more so in Europe than in the US where Apple Music has a larger market share.
        1718627440 11mo ago
        Because Facebook and Google insert themself into unrelated websites, their monopoly is not just search. > And who listens to CDs anymore or even has a CD player in their car or on their computer? True for computers, but every cheap radio has a CD player and it's very common to have one in the car. > How do you get the music on your phone? Ripping them from a CD. Like I agree CDs are getting less common, but not for sells at a concert. Nobody is going to tell you to use Spotify, because it screams "cheap"! That might fly for hobby musicians, but professionals will ruin their reputation.
bmicraft 1y ago
Those laws literally only apply to companies a size close to Apple. Don't make this about startups.
- ASalazarMX 1y ago
  B-but that's unfair! All my startups ideas are bait and switch, and walled garden, as the end game!
rsynnott 1y ago
The DMA only applies to companies with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum. Like, your startup will be _fine_.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > your startup will be _fine_ Your start-up also won't get acquired by anyone "with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum." That may be fine with some folks. But it's an obvious downside if you're a start-up or backer thereof.
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive?
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive? No. Nobody claimed that. Because it's a straw man. "Your startup will be __fine__" implies there is no effect on a start-up. That's not true when one considers ecosystem effects.
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    Nobody of decent character would care about that. Building a business is supposed to be about providing quality goods and services to customers, not trying to get a payout from a big company when they acquire you.
wqaatwt 1y ago
Another reason is allowing American magacorps to take over the entire market and syphon massive amounts of money from the EU without providing anything in return at all. China went the opposite route and while far from ideal due to rather obvious reasons at least they have their own tech companies which is that keeping that money in the Chinese economy.

user_7832 1y ago

> The EC is also under a lot of internal pressure from member states to calm down on the regulation, as it's considered one reason why Europe is such a bad place to do a tech startup right now. Turns out then using private data for ads (Google) and acting like a middleman (Apple) are apparently lucrative and worth money? (This isn't a critique to you OP or your comment, but rather a commentary on the 21st century.)

JustExAWS 1y ago
And amazingly they never considered Spotify a gatekeeper. I wonder what makes Spotify different? It couldn’t be because they are a European company?
- yupyupyups 1y ago
  You wonder what makes Spotify different from the iOS AppStore?
- rsynnott 1y ago
  It was too small at the time the law came into force. It's actually just about big enough now (market cap 110bn). That said, it's not at all clear that it's a gatekeeper in the sense that, say, Apple or Google are; it's mostly just one reseller of many of other peoples' stuff, and most Spotify users aren't forced to use it. It's just hard to see how it poses the same sort of competition problem. (You could maybe make a _vague_ argument based on podcast exclusives, but it seems like pushing it a bit.) The really puzzling one to me is TikTok, which is included but feels like it barely meets the criteria.
  - JustExAWS 1y ago
    What artist can get away without being on Spotify? There are really only two music streaming services that are important - Apple Music and Spotify. Just like there are only two app stores that are important - iOS and Android. Spotify has a much larger market share in streaming music than Apple has in smartphones in Europe. Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? (True you either have to either use your computer or the iOS GarageBand hack)
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      > Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? That would only matter, if the device wouldn't allow to play music in another application.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  You can use devices just fine without Spotify? You can have access to music without Spotify? What is Spotify the gatekeeper to?
  - JustExAWS 11mo ago
    The EU is not concerned with users in this case they are worried about developers having to deal with a monopsony and trying to make the mobile market more open to competition for developers. Spotify is the same gatekeeper for musicians.
    - 1718627440 11mo ago
      If the market is selling music, musicians can sell CDs just fine without Spotify. On performances I went to, nearly everyone has offered buying or ordering CDs, while only a few have told that you can listen to them on Spotify.
      - JustExAWS 11mo ago
        And people can communicate without using Facebook, search without using Google etc and they are still considered “Gatekeepers”. And who listens to CDs anymore or even has a CD player in their car or on their computer? How do you get the music on your phone? I was in Seattle a couple of years ago walking around and someone was selling CDs of their music on the street like it was the early 2000s. WTF am I going to do with a CD? Do people carry around CD Walkman’s anymore? But you’re not going to be a major artist and get wide appeal or even gain an audience without being on Spotify - more so in Europe than in the US where Apple Music has a larger market share.
        1718627440 11mo ago
        Because Facebook and Google insert themself into unrelated websites, their monopoly is not just search. > And who listens to CDs anymore or even has a CD player in their car or on their computer? True for computers, but every cheap radio has a CD player and it's very common to have one in the car. > How do you get the music on your phone? Ripping them from a CD. Like I agree CDs are getting less common, but not for sells at a concert. Nobody is going to tell you to use Spotify, because it screams "cheap"! That might fly for hobby musicians, but professionals will ruin their reputation.

bmicraft 1y ago

Those laws literally only apply to companies a size close to Apple. Don't make this about startups.

ASalazarMX 1y ago
B-but that's unfair! All my startups ideas are bait and switch, and walled garden, as the end game!

rsynnott 1y ago

The DMA only applies to companies with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum. Like, your startup will be _fine_.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> your startup will be _fine_ Your start-up also won't get acquired by anyone "with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum." That may be fine with some folks. But it's an obvious downside if you're a start-up or backer thereof.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive?
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive? No. Nobody claimed that. Because it's a straw man. "Your startup will be __fine__" implies there is no effect on a start-up. That's not true when one considers ecosystem effects.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago
  Nobody of decent character would care about that. Building a business is supposed to be about providing quality goods and services to customers, not trying to get a payout from a big company when they acquire you.

wqaatwt 1y ago

Another reason is allowing American magacorps to take over the entire market and syphon massive amounts of money from the EU without providing anything in return at all. China went the opposite route and while far from ideal due to rather obvious reasons at least they have their own tech companies which is that keeping that money in the Chinese economy.