5 ms·

Notarization means they still have a say on which app is allowed to run or not. This goes against the spirit of the DMA, which was supposed to 'open up' 3rd pa

by zoobab 1y ago

Notarization means they still have a say on which app is allowed to run or not. This goes against the spirit of the DMA, which was supposed to 'open up' 3rd party stores. The European Commission does not seem to care atm that Apple is still the gatekeeper.

microtonal 1y ago
The European Commission does not seem to care atm that Apple is still the gatekeeper. I think the European Commission is threading the needle, trying to find a path to uphold the DMA/DSA while not provoking another tariff war.
- bzzzt 1y ago
  I think they prefer to have Apple accountable for everything that happens on Apple devices too. You can't pressure Apple into removing an app when they have to give up the only option to enforce that.
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
  > I think the European Commission is threading the needle, trying to find a path to uphold the DMA/DSA while not provoking another tariff war. The EC is also under a lot of internal pressure from member states to calm down on the regulation, as it's considered one reason why Europe is such a bad place to do a tech startup right now.
  - user_7832 1y ago
    > The EC is also under a lot of internal pressure from member states to calm down on the regulation, as it's considered one reason why Europe is such a bad place to do a tech startup right now. Turns out then using private data for ads (Google) and acting like a middleman (Apple) are apparently lucrative and worth money? (This isn't a critique to you OP or your comment, but rather a commentary on the 21st century.)
    - JustExAWS 1y ago
      And amazingly they never considered Spotify a gatekeeper. I wonder what makes Spotify different? It couldn’t be because they are a European company?
      - yupyupyups 1y ago
        You wonder what makes Spotify different from the iOS AppStore?
      - rsynnott 1y ago
        It was too small at the time the law came into force. It's actually just about big enough now (market cap 110bn). That said, it's not at all clear that it's a gatekeeper in the sense that, say, Apple or Google are; it's mostly just one reseller of many of other peoples' stuff, and most Spotify users aren't forced to use it. It's just hard to see how it poses the same sort of competition problem. (You could maybe make a _vague_ argument based on podcast exclusives, but it seems like pushing it a bit.) The really puzzling one to me is TikTok, which is included but feels like it barely meets the criteria.
        JustExAWS 1y ago
        What artist can get away without being on Spotify? There are really only two music streaming services that are important - Apple Music and Spotify. Just like there are only two app stores that are important - iOS and Android. Spotify has a much larger market share in streaming music than Apple has in smartphones in Europe. Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? (True you either have to either use your computer or the iOS GarageBand hack)
        1718627440 1y ago
        > Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? That would only matter, if the device wouldn't allow to play music in another application.
      - 1y ago
  - bmicraft 1y ago
    Those laws literally only apply to companies a size close to Apple. Don't make this about startups.
    - ASalazarMX 1y ago
      B-but that's unfair! All my startups ideas are bait and switch, and walled garden, as the end game!
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    The DMA only applies to companies with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum. Like, your startup will be _fine_.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > your startup will be _fine_ Your start-up also won't get acquired by anyone "with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum." That may be fine with some folks. But it's an obvious downside if you're a start-up or backer thereof.
      - rsynnott 1y ago
        Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive?
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive? No. Nobody claimed that. Because it's a straw man. "Your startup will be __fine__" implies there is no effect on a start-up. That's not true when one considers ecosystem effects.
      - bigstrat2003 1y ago
        Nobody of decent character would care about that. Building a business is supposed to be about providing quality goods and services to customers, not trying to get a payout from a big company when they acquire you.
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    Another reason is allowing American magacorps to take over the entire market and syphon massive amounts of money from the EU without providing anything in return at all. China went the opposite route and while far from ideal due to rather obvious reasons at least they have their own tech companies which is that keeping that money in the Chinese economy.
jarjoura 1y ago
Notarization is an automated process at the very least, and just speculation, but since entitlements are baked into the codesigning step, it seems meant to prevent software from granting itself entitlements Apple doesn't want 3rd parties having access to.
- cyberax 1y ago
  Notarization is automatic, but the European app store still requires a full review by a human.

by zoobab 1y ago

microtonal 1y ago

The European Commission does not seem to care atm that Apple is still the gatekeeper. I think the European Commission is threading the needle, trying to find a path to uphold the DMA/DSA while not provoking another tariff war.

bzzzt 1y ago
I think they prefer to have Apple accountable for everything that happens on Apple devices too. You can't pressure Apple into removing an app when they have to give up the only option to enforce that.
ChocolateGod 1y ago
> I think the European Commission is threading the needle, trying to find a path to uphold the DMA/DSA while not provoking another tariff war. The EC is also under a lot of internal pressure from member states to calm down on the regulation, as it's considered one reason why Europe is such a bad place to do a tech startup right now.
- user_7832 1y ago
  > The EC is also under a lot of internal pressure from member states to calm down on the regulation, as it's considered one reason why Europe is such a bad place to do a tech startup right now. Turns out then using private data for ads (Google) and acting like a middleman (Apple) are apparently lucrative and worth money? (This isn't a critique to you OP or your comment, but rather a commentary on the 21st century.)
  - JustExAWS 1y ago
    And amazingly they never considered Spotify a gatekeeper. I wonder what makes Spotify different? It couldn’t be because they are a European company?
    - yupyupyups 1y ago
      You wonder what makes Spotify different from the iOS AppStore?
    - rsynnott 1y ago
      It was too small at the time the law came into force. It's actually just about big enough now (market cap 110bn). That said, it's not at all clear that it's a gatekeeper in the sense that, say, Apple or Google are; it's mostly just one reseller of many of other peoples' stuff, and most Spotify users aren't forced to use it. It's just hard to see how it poses the same sort of competition problem. (You could maybe make a _vague_ argument based on podcast exclusives, but it seems like pushing it a bit.) The really puzzling one to me is TikTok, which is included but feels like it barely meets the criteria.
      - JustExAWS 1y ago
        What artist can get away without being on Spotify? There are really only two music streaming services that are important - Apple Music and Spotify. Just like there are only two app stores that are important - iOS and Android. Spotify has a much larger market share in streaming music than Apple has in smartphones in Europe. Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? (True you either have to either use your computer or the iOS GarageBand hack)
        1718627440 1y ago
        > Can I side load my own music in my Spotify library like I can with Apple Music? That would only matter, if the device wouldn't allow to play music in another application.
    - 1y ago
- bmicraft 1y ago
  Those laws literally only apply to companies a size close to Apple. Don't make this about startups.
  - ASalazarMX 1y ago
    B-but that's unfair! All my startups ideas are bait and switch, and walled garden, as the end game!
- rsynnott 1y ago
  The DMA only applies to companies with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum. Like, your startup will be _fine_.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > your startup will be _fine_ Your start-up also won't get acquired by anyone "with a market cap >75bn EUR, or turnover in the EU >7.5bn EUR/annum." That may be fine with some folks. But it's an obvious downside if you're a start-up or backer thereof.
    - rsynnott 1y ago
      Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive?
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Are you claiming that big companies can only exist in an environment where they are allowed to be really anti-competitive? No. Nobody claimed that. Because it's a straw man. "Your startup will be __fine__" implies there is no effect on a start-up. That's not true when one considers ecosystem effects.
    - bigstrat2003 1y ago
      Nobody of decent character would care about that. Building a business is supposed to be about providing quality goods and services to customers, not trying to get a payout from a big company when they acquire you.
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  Another reason is allowing American magacorps to take over the entire market and syphon massive amounts of money from the EU without providing anything in return at all. China went the opposite route and while far from ideal due to rather obvious reasons at least they have their own tech companies which is that keeping that money in the Chinese economy.

jarjoura 1y ago

Notarization is an automated process at the very least, and just speculation, but since entitlements are baked into the codesigning step, it seems meant to prevent software from granting itself entitlements Apple doesn't want 3rd parties having access to.

cyberax 1y ago
Notarization is automatic, but the European app store still requires a full review by a human.