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It's not misinformation, that's how X still works. Clients do all kinds of things. New programs aren't like 80s ones but your X server still must support every

It's not misinformation, that's how X still works. Clients do all kinds of things. New programs aren't like 80s ones but your X server still must support every operation clients expect. Wayland doesn't break anything, it's a completely new protocol. Claiming Wayland breaks your use case is like saying systemd broke old init scripts. It did because it's a different system. Wayland isn't trying to be Xorg 2. It's a protocol. At its core it's only a compositor protocol. Everything built on top is up to the implementation developers.

froh 11mo ago
> Everything built on top is up to the implementation developers. and that's exactly creating the problem: Window management for example is left as an excercise to the reader. thus (my point above) the WSLg interop for graphcial applications _sucks_ compared to where X Servers already were. and if MS doesn't implement what's needed, it won't come. no way to fix it in the Linux or on the Windows side. the MS Wayland thingie in between tightly controls what is possible.
uecker 11mo ago
The logical problem with your argument is that as long as we want to support old clients, we now must support the X server in parallel to Wayland. So there is nothing gained. And the moment we can stop supporting them, we could do this also in X. And yes, Wayland being new and incomplete both creates a huge amount of problem which nobody needs.
- throwaway7489 11mo ago
  Wayland gives us a lot. What you don't realize is that Wayland _is_ X12.
  - uecker 11mo ago
    So far Wayland gave me only headaches and I do not see what it offers that X does not already provide. And the fact that Wayland make their case by lying, etc. the drawing commands BS, network transparency does not work (I feature we do use every day), etc. and the fact that important use cases such as accessibility are now treated as an afterthought that there are diverging implementations with inconsistent support for important functionality, ... all this does not build confidence that the developers even remotely know what they are doing outside of their narrow view on the Graphics pipeline itself. And this after decades of effort. Maybe it is too late now to save X, but Wayland was a terrible idea, not the idea of developing Wayland itself as an experiment with open result, but to declare X dead and Wayland its successor long before it was ready and before it was clear that it is actually a better replacement (so far, it isn't).
    - throwaway7489 11mo ago
      Those are not lies. I don't think you know what you are talking about. If you knew, you would know that waypipe + xwayland-satellite works even for forwarding X11 clients over waypipe. I use it myself every day, but it's pointless to discuss it with someone who isn't interested in listening, only in spreading the same lies as everyone else.
      - uecker 11mo ago
        Sorry, how was your comment "Wayland is an evolution of the previous design. X11's architecture had clients sending drawing commands to the X server, a method that became limited and required extensions over time. Wayland's approach is: applications perform their own rendering into their own separate buffers, then tell the compositor when they are ready. The compositor takes those buffers to produce the final image." not highly misleading, if X had the composite extension in 2004 and Wayland project was started in 2008? Last time I tried waypipe it did not work and its design seems flawed as it has to have hard-coded knowledge about each protocol used on the wire.
        deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
        throwaway7489 11mo ago
        I apologize for my previous misleading comments. You're right, Wayland causes many problems. As a long time Linux user, I miss how capable X was and don't want to see it go. Wayland compositors feel like toys in comparison, and its advocates sometimes seem to be coping. However, with major DEs and toolkits dropping X11 support, what options do we truly have?
        uecker 11mo ago
        I dropped Gnome a long time ago and I have never used KDE, so I don't this is an immediate problem for me. As long as there are enough people using it, X will live on. I think the main thing one can do is to not accept the argument that whatever the industry wants is inevitable. Free software would not exist if this were the case.

froh 11mo ago

> Everything built on top is up to the implementation developers. and that's exactly creating the problem: Window management for example is left as an excercise to the reader. thus (my point above) the WSLg interop for graphcial applications _sucks_ compared to where X Servers already were. and if MS doesn't implement what's needed, it won't come. no way to fix it in the Linux or on the Windows side. the MS Wayland thingie in between tightly controls what is possible.

uecker 11mo ago

The logical problem with your argument is that as long as we want to support old clients, we now must support the X server in parallel to Wayland. So there is nothing gained. And the moment we can stop supporting them, we could do this also in X. And yes, Wayland being new and incomplete both creates a huge amount of problem which nobody needs.

throwaway7489 11mo ago
Wayland gives us a lot. What you don't realize is that Wayland _is_ X12.
- uecker 11mo ago
  So far Wayland gave me only headaches and I do not see what it offers that X does not already provide. And the fact that Wayland make their case by lying, etc. the drawing commands BS, network transparency does not work (I feature we do use every day), etc. and the fact that important use cases such as accessibility are now treated as an afterthought that there are diverging implementations with inconsistent support for important functionality, ... all this does not build confidence that the developers even remotely know what they are doing outside of their narrow view on the Graphics pipeline itself. And this after decades of effort. Maybe it is too late now to save X, but Wayland was a terrible idea, not the idea of developing Wayland itself as an experiment with open result, but to declare X dead and Wayland its successor long before it was ready and before it was clear that it is actually a better replacement (so far, it isn't).
  - throwaway7489 11mo ago
    Those are not lies. I don't think you know what you are talking about. If you knew, you would know that waypipe + xwayland-satellite works even for forwarding X11 clients over waypipe. I use it myself every day, but it's pointless to discuss it with someone who isn't interested in listening, only in spreading the same lies as everyone else.
    - uecker 11mo ago
      Sorry, how was your comment "Wayland is an evolution of the previous design. X11's architecture had clients sending drawing commands to the X server, a method that became limited and required extensions over time. Wayland's approach is: applications perform their own rendering into their own separate buffers, then tell the compositor when they are ready. The compositor takes those buffers to produce the final image." not highly misleading, if X had the composite extension in 2004 and Wayland project was started in 2008? Last time I tried waypipe it did not work and its design seems flawed as it has to have hard-coded knowledge about each protocol used on the wire.
      - deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
      - throwaway7489 11mo ago
        I apologize for my previous misleading comments. You're right, Wayland causes many problems. As a long time Linux user, I miss how capable X was and don't want to see it go. Wayland compositors feel like toys in comparison, and its advocates sometimes seem to be coping. However, with major DEs and toolkits dropping X11 support, what options do we truly have?
        uecker 11mo ago
        I dropped Gnome a long time ago and I have never used KDE, so I don't this is an immediate problem for me. As long as there are enough people using it, X will live on. I think the main thing one can do is to not accept the argument that whatever the industry wants is inevitable. Free software would not exist if this were the case.