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State liquor stores are terrible, and I’ve never heard anyone say a nice word about on base grocery stores.

by ch4s3 1y ago

afavour 1y ago
That’s just goal post shifting. The point is that government owned direct to consumer stores exist in areas of all political leaning.
- throwaway3060 1y ago
  That's because liquor stores originated from an earlier incarnation of the culture wars. That was a long time ago, and I don't think anyone seriously believes in that justification now, but the inertia remains.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    They still exist in Idaho (where I live) because the state doesn't believe in advertising alcohol. I think that's a pretty good reason for them to exist even today. We don't need the market competing to get people to drink more.
    - ch4s3 1y ago
      > I think that's a pretty good reason for them to exist even today. Only if you think the government should be telling people what to buy and what not to buy. I personally find that highly objectionable, particularly given the outsized power of primary voters in most places.
- Ferret7446 1y ago
  You suggested that this is good because it is similar to a thing, and many people pointed out that thing you compared it to is bad. That is not goalpost shifting, that is you demonstrating that this is in fact bad.
  - afavour 1y ago
    I never said anything about good or bad. It was a response to: > Government run grocery stores are middle of the road?
- ch4s3 1y ago
  It’s the goalpost you set. They’re hardly mainstream if everyone hates them.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    I don't hate them. I have one in walking distance from my home. It's a liquor store, what should I hate about it? The only people I see complaining about them are religious teetotalers.
    - ch4s3 1y ago
      > what should I hate about it? The prices are usually higher than private stores, the merchandising is worse, the selection is usually bad, and they're generally just a miserable shopping experience. Compare them to a nice wine and liquor store in states where those are allowed and the difference is quite apparent. They also never have staff that know anything about the products which is just a shitty DMV like experience.
      - cogman10 1y ago
        Other than merchandising (why is that important?) nothing you describe is an issue with the Idaho liquor stores. Prices are pretty in line with market rates. The selection is really pretty good. The shopping experience is the same as any other store (what makes a shopping experience "miserable?") > Compare them to a nice wine In Idaho, wine is allowed to be sold in grocery stores and specialty shops. The liquor stores are for hard beverages. > They also never have staff that know anything about the products Staff seems just fine with the products. But again, don't see why that's important in general. > just a shitty DMV like experience. I don't really know what you mean by this. You go in, find the booze you like, pay for it at the register, or ask a clerk a question if you have one (Do you have a lot of questions purchasing alcohol? Every time?) If you want a more expensive experience you can go to a wine shop in Idaho and let someone blow smoke up your ass about the notes. Look, Idaho might just be particularly good at running a booze shop, but I doubt it. It may be that because Idaho only has liquor stores for hard alcoholic beverages it's made for a better experience all around. It certainly doesn't suffer from selection, knowledge, or experience problems. I think the only issue you might take is that it's just sorted shelves of alcohol with little flashy theming.
shawn_w 1y ago
I have fond memories of the Navy commissary my parents did most of our food shopping at when I was growing up. Huge variety of reasonably priced goods.
ikety 1y ago
Highly disagree. The commissary on most military bases are awesome. Spent most of my life going there with my parents. Not sure where you heard they were bad. Never got that impression from any military serving people, like ever.
- mothballed 1y ago
  Now imagine how the commissary would turn out if instead of being placed in a spot where any commercial business would love to exploit (center of military base where every family has employment, a process for permanently kicking out people who engage in major crime, and private competition controlled unless you go through a security checkpoint) -- instead you put them in many of the places I witnessed food deserts in major US cities that had underemployment, elevated crime, outsiders afraid to enter during the day and ~never enter at night, bars on every window, and every other establishment has you slide your cash in a rotating tray adjacent to a bulletproof window.
- cityofdelusion 1y ago
  I feel like the commissary these days is really far behind private grocers. Yeah, 15 or 25 years ago they were awesome, but now it just resembles a poorly stocked (and much smaller) Walmart. Regional grocers have gotten really good in my lifetime. Used to go to the commissary regularly to save money and have a good selection, but those days are just long past. Same deal with base liquor stores, they are merely "OK", but again your regional private option is just so much nicer in the 2020s.
PyWoody 1y ago
I love my state liquor stores. The staff are treated and paid well, the stores are well stocked and clean, and I pay tax free on some of the lowest prices in the country.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  But why? Liquor is the cause for a very high portion of police, insurance (property and health), and other costs that can’t be translated into dollars. Why shouldn’t society recoup some of those costs from the users? And why should society subsidize those costs? It’s interesting that it was politically acceptable to charge tobacco users more for health insurance, but not politically acceptable to charge alcohol users more for health insurance.
  - ch4s3 1y ago
    > And why should society subsidize those costs? Allowing private business isn't a subsidy. > Why shouldn’t society recoup some of those costs from the users? That's what the taxes are for.
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      The government running liquor stores at no profit is a subsidy. > That's what the taxes are for. Taxes are not (should not be) for subsidizing behavior that results in a loss for society.
      - PyWoody 1y ago
        > The government running liquor stores at no profit is a subsidy. New Hampshire liquor stores contribute over $150MM to community programs a year. [0]. They had an annual profit of $170MM in FY2023. [0] https://www.90yearsofcheers.com/where-the-money-goes/ https://www.90yearsofcheers.com/where-the-money-goes/
        lotsofpulp 1y ago
senordevnyc 1y ago
I was in the Navy and I loved the on-base grocery store. A big part of it was that I was overseas and it felt like home, but also the prices were great, it was clean, and had a decent selection.

State liquor stores are terrible, and I’ve never heard anyone say a nice word about on base grocery stores.

by ch4s3 1y ago

State liquor stores are terrible, and I’ve never heard anyone say a nice word about on base grocery stores.

That’s just goal post shifting. The point is that government owned direct to consumer stores exist in areas of all political leaning.

throwaway3060 1y ago
That's because liquor stores originated from an earlier incarnation of the culture wars. That was a long time ago, and I don't think anyone seriously believes in that justification now, but the inertia remains.
- cogman10 1y ago
  They still exist in Idaho (where I live) because the state doesn't believe in advertising alcohol. I think that's a pretty good reason for them to exist even today. We don't need the market competing to get people to drink more.
  - ch4s3 1y ago
    > I think that's a pretty good reason for them to exist even today. Only if you think the government should be telling people what to buy and what not to buy. I personally find that highly objectionable, particularly given the outsized power of primary voters in most places.
Ferret7446 1y ago
You suggested that this is good because it is similar to a thing, and many people pointed out that thing you compared it to is bad. That is not goalpost shifting, that is you demonstrating that this is in fact bad.
- afavour 1y ago
  I never said anything about good or bad. It was a response to: > Government run grocery stores are middle of the road?
ch4s3 1y ago
It’s the goalpost you set. They’re hardly mainstream if everyone hates them.
- cogman10 1y ago
  I don't hate them. I have one in walking distance from my home. It's a liquor store, what should I hate about it? The only people I see complaining about them are religious teetotalers.
  - ch4s3 1y ago
    > what should I hate about it? The prices are usually higher than private stores, the merchandising is worse, the selection is usually bad, and they're generally just a miserable shopping experience. Compare them to a nice wine and liquor store in states where those are allowed and the difference is quite apparent. They also never have staff that know anything about the products which is just a shitty DMV like experience.
    - cogman10 1y ago
      Other than merchandising (why is that important?) nothing you describe is an issue with the Idaho liquor stores. Prices are pretty in line with market rates. The selection is really pretty good. The shopping experience is the same as any other store (what makes a shopping experience "miserable?") > Compare them to a nice wine In Idaho, wine is allowed to be sold in grocery stores and specialty shops. The liquor stores are for hard beverages. > They also never have staff that know anything about the products Staff seems just fine with the products. But again, don't see why that's important in general. > just a shitty DMV like experience. I don't really know what you mean by this. You go in, find the booze you like, pay for it at the register, or ask a clerk a question if you have one (Do you have a lot of questions purchasing alcohol? Every time?) If you want a more expensive experience you can go to a wine shop in Idaho and let someone blow smoke up your ass about the notes. Look, Idaho might just be particularly good at running a booze shop, but I doubt it. It may be that because Idaho only has liquor stores for hard alcoholic beverages it's made for a better experience all around. It certainly doesn't suffer from selection, knowledge, or experience problems. I think the only issue you might take is that it's just sorted shelves of alcohol with little flashy theming.

shawn_w 1y ago

I have fond memories of the Navy commissary my parents did most of our food shopping at when I was growing up. Huge variety of reasonably priced goods.

ikety 1y ago

Highly disagree. The commissary on most military bases are awesome. Spent most of my life going there with my parents. Not sure where you heard they were bad. Never got that impression from any military serving people, like ever.

mothballed 1y ago
Now imagine how the commissary would turn out if instead of being placed in a spot where any commercial business would love to exploit (center of military base where every family has employment, a process for permanently kicking out people who engage in major crime, and private competition controlled unless you go through a security checkpoint) -- instead you put them in many of the places I witnessed food deserts in major US cities that had underemployment, elevated crime, outsiders afraid to enter during the day and ~never enter at night, bars on every window, and every other establishment has you slide your cash in a rotating tray adjacent to a bulletproof window.
cityofdelusion 1y ago
I feel like the commissary these days is really far behind private grocers. Yeah, 15 or 25 years ago they were awesome, but now it just resembles a poorly stocked (and much smaller) Walmart. Regional grocers have gotten really good in my lifetime. Used to go to the commissary regularly to save money and have a good selection, but those days are just long past. Same deal with base liquor stores, they are merely "OK", but again your regional private option is just so much nicer in the 2020s.

PyWoody 1y ago

I love my state liquor stores. The staff are treated and paid well, the stores are well stocked and clean, and I pay tax free on some of the lowest prices in the country.

lotsofpulp 1y ago
But why? Liquor is the cause for a very high portion of police, insurance (property and health), and other costs that can’t be translated into dollars. Why shouldn’t society recoup some of those costs from the users? And why should society subsidize those costs? It’s interesting that it was politically acceptable to charge tobacco users more for health insurance, but not politically acceptable to charge alcohol users more for health insurance.
- ch4s3 1y ago
  > And why should society subsidize those costs? Allowing private business isn't a subsidy. > Why shouldn’t society recoup some of those costs from the users? That's what the taxes are for.
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    The government running liquor stores at no profit is a subsidy. > That's what the taxes are for. Taxes are not (should not be) for subsidizing behavior that results in a loss for society.
    - PyWoody 1y ago
      > The government running liquor stores at no profit is a subsidy. New Hampshire liquor stores contribute over $150MM to community programs a year. [0]. They had an annual profit of $170MM in FY2023. [0] https://www.90yearsofcheers.com/where-the-money-goes/ https://www.90yearsofcheers.com/where-the-money-goes/
      - lotsofpulp 1y ago

senordevnyc 1y ago

I was in the Navy and I loved the on-base grocery store. A big part of it was that I was overseas and it felt like home, but also the prices were great, it was clean, and had a decent selection.