7 ms·

Singapore is an odd country. The only country, to my knowledge, that had independence thrust upon it without its consent. Extremely prosperous compared to its n

Singapore is an odd country. The only country, to my knowledge, that had independence thrust upon it without its consent. Extremely prosperous compared to its neighbors. An autocratic, single party state where the government is so popular that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices. One of the most militarized countries (#3 by military spending per capita) in the world, yet their military has barely been used. What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. The autocracy+militarization+heavily meddled with big business thing most resembles fascist states, but without the typical racist scapegoating (on the contrary, they've put a frankly inordinate amount of effort into preventing racial infighting). In most countries "The country also passed a new law earlier this year that would allow the police to control the bank accounts of individuals who they suspect to be scam targets and limit what transactions they can do." would probably set off alarm bells, but it does seem like business as usual in Singapore.

neuchatel1968 1y ago
"Disneyland with the death penalty"
- Gigablah 1y ago
  Meanwhile, the US carries out extrajudicial killings over drugs
  - ghuffed 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - colechristensen 1y ago
    It's not at all clear they they're not just killing fishermen and migrants.
    - epolanski 1y ago
      I'm sure incidents happen, but I doubt there's many uses for privates in south America to own private submarines.
- exidy 1y ago
  That article is more than three decades old now. Time to give it a rest.
djaouen 1y ago
> "The country also passed a new law earlier this year that would allow the police to control the bank accounts of individuals who they suspect to be scam targets and limit what transactions they can do." This is crazy to me. How far are we willing to go in terms of restricting freedoms for safety?
- tom_ 1y ago
  If you live in Singapore: don't ask us! If you disagree, vote against the government, and/or get out on the streets and protest! If you don't live in Singapore: it's not your problem.
  - idle_zealot 1y ago
    Human rights are everyone's problem.
    - tom_ 1y ago
      Thank you for this good response to my shit comment. It was intended to make some point along these lines, but, reading it again, it completely didn't.
  - kelipso 1y ago
    It’s practically a one party state, no? And I’ve heard lots of stories of protesters getting disappeared after the police arrest them. Easy to say these things.
    - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
      They are a one party state, but not for lack of trying. It just turns out that turning a country from a fishing village to a world-class economy in a couple decades buys you a lot of good will from the voters.
      - em-bee 1y ago
radpanda 1y ago
I’ve never been there but whenever I read something about it I get the vibe that they’re an HOA with a military.
- dghlsakjg 1y ago
  Not really. They are famous for having a lot of rules, but the instances where they really go wild are when someone has been particularly egregious. For the most part it is just insanely materialistic as the main downside. Most of the "harsh" rules make a tremendous amount of sense when you actually go there. Yeah, gum and spitting are illegal, and that is a good thing in a city as crowded as that with a significant population from countries where spitting is customary. Take an overnight train in China, and you will come to discover that you too appreciate a place where people can't just hork one up at will. To put it into perspective, SG is one of the rare tier 1 cities where you can get a Michelin meal from a street vendor (literally), after engaging the services of a prostitute, and drinking a beer in public. It isn't nearly as uptight as an HOA.
  - inkyoto 1y ago
    > Yeah, gum […] illegal […] This trope, long exhausted and repeatedly regurgitated, persists despite the reality having shifted considerably. In truth, chewing gum has been legally obtainable in Singapore for a long time and is available for purchase through local pharmacies.
  - GeoAtreides 1y ago
    Barbaric justice systems never make sense, they're just the last resort of the incompetent.
- spc476 1y ago
  William Gibson got a lifetime ban for calling it "Disney with the death penalty" in a Wired article.
  - pxc 1y ago
    That's really interesting, because the Disney comparison could only be considered positive, and the death penalty thing is strictly speaking a fact and public knowledge.
potato3732842 1y ago
>What would you even call their socioeconomic system? Asian Switzerland. And if that offends anyone it ought to be the Swiss (and any fanboys they may have who take offense on their behalf).
- anthem2025 1y ago
  How can such an authoritarian state be compared to Switzerland?
- JSR_FDED 1y ago
  Hmm, a clean, safe, prosperous country with world class education, top medical facilities, a technocratic highly competent government, reasonable taxes, and a place that people like to come for vacation…I can see how this would offend people
- pyuser583 1y ago
  I’ve heard lots of other places called “Asian Switzerland.” Bhutan, and and rural parts of Myanmar.
idle_zealot 1y ago
> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. The autocracy+militarization+heavily meddled with big business thing most resembles fascist states It's just State Capitalism, isn't it? Like China. A market-based economy with free enterprise, but no illusions of egalitarianism or democracy, enables the state to step in and manage and direct the market with effective regulation. In a democracy the state can manage this for a time, but eventually a private entity or group of entities leverages their power to influence law and co-opt democratic power, so the market starts steering its own regulation and you end up with fascism as a means of population control or a Russia-style cleptocratic oligarchy. We have not yet figured out how to sustain democracy + capitalism, if it's even possible. I worry that most will see the rise of countries like Singapore and China and the relative decline of the US/EU and conclude that democracy is a failed project all together.
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  China does have illusions of egalitarianism, though. They don't call themselves the "Communist" party without reason. And enterprise, to my understanding, is much, much freer in Singapore than it is in China.
- ebbi 1y ago
  I'm not saying democracy is a failed project all together, but something that has been on my mind a lot recently is that democracy is quite inefficient - where I'm from anyway (New Zealand). We are a small country, with general elections every four years. So most of the decisions our government takes a less bold, and optimized for short term interests and to get the next cycle vote. And when we have had times a government has made plans for a large infrastructure project, a successive government will come in and undo all of that planning. For example, Auckland, our major economic hub, doesn't even have proper public transportation, and now citizens are battling with issues commuting to and from work. I think part of Singapore's success has been it's ability to make bold decisions and see it through without worrying about short term election cycles.
dyauspitr 1y ago
It’s a city state, calling it a country is a stretch.
- markdown 1y ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
veqq 1y ago
> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? China economically functions similarly to Singapore, with long documented connections and explicit emulation. In 1978, Deng Xiaoping already began this and hundreds of thousands of Chinese officials and leaders were trained there and in industrial parks with the explicit goal of knowledge sharing with the dream of "planting 1000 Singapores". [0, 1, 2, 3] > fascist states, but without the typical racist scapegoating Tangential, but Hitler added racism; Mussolini, Salazar, Franco/de Rivera (who used large Arab and Berber forces fighting the Republicans in Spain) etc. had none of that (until Hitler forced Mussolini's hand in 1938). Brazilian integralists and many other fascisms also weren't racially based. [0] https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3042046/does-china-still-have-anything-learn-singapore https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3042046/does... [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24761028.2021.1951480 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24761028.2021.1... [2] https://www.fairobserver.com/economics/china-and-its-mentor-singapore/ https://www.fairobserver.com/economics/china-and-its-mentor-... [3] https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/construction-singapore-model-mainland-china https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/construction-singapore-mo...
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  Eh, that's giving Mussolini more credit than he deserves. A core component of his platform was conquering swathes of Africa on colonial grounds.
  - veqq 1y ago
    It isn't "racist scapegoating" to conquer places in Africa, because it's not blaming some race for internal problems.
  - epolanski 1y ago
    That has nothing to do with fascism as you may not be aware but Italy started fighting colonial wars well before WW1 and the other hard on colonialists were all democracies.
- linohh 1y ago
  You might want to freshen up your history lessons with maybe some less revisionist sources, because Mussolini-wise I have some bad news for you.
Simulacra 1y ago
It could really just be the money.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
nexle 1y ago
> Singapore is an odd country The reason you find it odd is because you really can't find another country that the citizen have such a high trust towards the government and let the government do (almost) anything they wanted, yet the government doesn't abuse this power (mostly, at least) and continue focus on long term benefits of the country (rather than short term gains because the political party need to survive the next election in few years time) > One of the most militarized countries (#3 by military spending per capita) in the world, yet their military has barely been used. Ther reason is quite simple: Singapore is a very small country and it is very easily to be invaded. The high military spending is more of a deterent. > What would you even call their socioeconomic system? It is very much a free market capitalism with some state intervention, similar to many other countries. If anything, I would say Singapore is more free market than many western countries due to the fact that the government is very pro-business as the country is heavily rely on foreign businesses to survive.
- chrischen 1y ago
  No need to abuse anything until shit hits the fan.
arugulum 1y ago
>that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices I don't believe this is true. If you're talking about Non-Constituency Members of Parliament, they are consolation prizes given to best losers, and there are many things they cannot vote on. Moreover, the ruling party almost never lifts the party whip, i.e. members of the party CANNOT vote against the party line (without being kicked out of the party, which results in them being kicked out of parliament). In other words, since the ruling party already has a majority, any opposing votes literally do not matter. If you aren't talking about the NCMP scheme, then I do not know what you're talking about, as the ruling party does institute policies that are beneficial for the incumbent party.
userbinator 1y ago
What would you even call their socioeconomic system? Pure authoritarianism.
- anon291 1y ago
  And yet the average Singaporean is freer economically, socially, and ideologically.
  - digianarchist 1y ago
    No freedom of press, no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, government owns/operates roughly ⅓ of the economy that features many state monopolies, the PAP maintains a gerrymandered control over the electorate, criticizing the government lands you in court for defamation and conveniently bankrupts can't run for parliament. Singapore is many things but not none of what you've written.
    - rauljordan2020 1y ago
      Singaporeans have insanely high quality of life and high pride in their system and people. They have an immense number of negative freedoms that the average person across the world could only dream of: freedom from violence, freedom from the devastating effects of drug addiction on families and society, freedom from poverty, freedom from corruption, freedom from instability. For the average person looking to raise a family, build a quality life, and just live well, Singapore is the perfect social contract. Don't like it? They have the most powerful or second most powerful passport in the world and can move anywhere else they see fit, yet they see their country as the best place they could be
      - digianarchist 1y ago
        Singaporeans have chosen economic security and social authoritarianism over the freedoms we enjoy in the West. That's their choice. A powerful passport doesn't mean they can move anywhere to live permanently and if they choose to become a citizen of the country they do move to then they will lose their Singaporean citizenship.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
hitekker 1y ago
If you haven't, go read "The Singapore Story" https://annas-archive.org/md5/6578558e0416e264a39da0448003ec13 https://annas-archive.org/md5/6578558e0416e264a39da0448003ec... If you're bored, skip to the Japanese invasion Chapter and then read on. Many unique things happened in Singapore to make Singapore, Singapore.
anon291 1y ago
Their social system is familiar to anyone with an Asian family
execat 1y ago
> An autocratic, single party state where the government is so popular that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices. It's not a single party state. Over 1/3rd of Singaporeans vote for the non-PAP candidates.
jameslk 1y ago
> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. What you’re describing is state capitalism, which is largely what the economic system is in China, Russia, and to some degree in the US. It’s where the government intervenes in the economy and controls critical corporations and industries

neuchatel1968 1y ago

"Disneyland with the death penalty"

Gigablah 1y ago
Meanwhile, the US carries out extrajudicial killings over drugs
- ghuffed 1y ago
  [flagged]
- colechristensen 1y ago
  It's not at all clear they they're not just killing fishermen and migrants.
  - epolanski 1y ago
    I'm sure incidents happen, but I doubt there's many uses for privates in south America to own private submarines.
exidy 1y ago
That article is more than three decades old now. Time to give it a rest.

djaouen 1y ago

> "The country also passed a new law earlier this year that would allow the police to control the bank accounts of individuals who they suspect to be scam targets and limit what transactions they can do." This is crazy to me. How far are we willing to go in terms of restricting freedoms for safety?

tom_ 1y ago
If you live in Singapore: don't ask us! If you disagree, vote against the government, and/or get out on the streets and protest! If you don't live in Singapore: it's not your problem.
- idle_zealot 1y ago
  Human rights are everyone's problem.
  - tom_ 1y ago
    Thank you for this good response to my shit comment. It was intended to make some point along these lines, but, reading it again, it completely didn't.
- kelipso 1y ago
  It’s practically a one party state, no? And I’ve heard lots of stories of protesters getting disappeared after the police arrest them. Easy to say these things.
  - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
    They are a one party state, but not for lack of trying. It just turns out that turning a country from a fishing village to a world-class economy in a couple decades buys you a lot of good will from the voters.
    - em-bee 1y ago

radpanda 1y ago

I’ve never been there but whenever I read something about it I get the vibe that they’re an HOA with a military.

dghlsakjg 1y ago
Not really. They are famous for having a lot of rules, but the instances where they really go wild are when someone has been particularly egregious. For the most part it is just insanely materialistic as the main downside. Most of the "harsh" rules make a tremendous amount of sense when you actually go there. Yeah, gum and spitting are illegal, and that is a good thing in a city as crowded as that with a significant population from countries where spitting is customary. Take an overnight train in China, and you will come to discover that you too appreciate a place where people can't just hork one up at will. To put it into perspective, SG is one of the rare tier 1 cities where you can get a Michelin meal from a street vendor (literally), after engaging the services of a prostitute, and drinking a beer in public. It isn't nearly as uptight as an HOA.
- inkyoto 1y ago
  > Yeah, gum […] illegal […] This trope, long exhausted and repeatedly regurgitated, persists despite the reality having shifted considerably. In truth, chewing gum has been legally obtainable in Singapore for a long time and is available for purchase through local pharmacies.
- GeoAtreides 1y ago
  Barbaric justice systems never make sense, they're just the last resort of the incompetent.
spc476 1y ago
William Gibson got a lifetime ban for calling it "Disney with the death penalty" in a Wired article.
- pxc 1y ago
  That's really interesting, because the Disney comparison could only be considered positive, and the death penalty thing is strictly speaking a fact and public knowledge.

potato3732842 1y ago

>What would you even call their socioeconomic system? Asian Switzerland. And if that offends anyone it ought to be the Swiss (and any fanboys they may have who take offense on their behalf).

anthem2025 1y ago
How can such an authoritarian state be compared to Switzerland?
JSR_FDED 1y ago
Hmm, a clean, safe, prosperous country with world class education, top medical facilities, a technocratic highly competent government, reasonable taxes, and a place that people like to come for vacation…I can see how this would offend people
pyuser583 1y ago
I’ve heard lots of other places called “Asian Switzerland.” Bhutan, and and rural parts of Myanmar.

idle_zealot 1y ago

> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. The autocracy+militarization+heavily meddled with big business thing most resembles fascist states It's just State Capitalism, isn't it? Like China. A market-based economy with free enterprise, but no illusions of egalitarianism or democracy, enables the state to step in and manage and direct the market with effective regulation. In a democracy the state can manage this for a time, but eventually a private entity or group of entities leverages their power to influence law and co-opt democratic power, so the market starts steering its own regulation and you end up with fascism as a means of population control or a Russia-style cleptocratic oligarchy. We have not yet figured out how to sustain democracy + capitalism, if it's even possible. I worry that most will see the rise of countries like Singapore and China and the relative decline of the US/EU and conclude that democracy is a failed project all together.

OkayPhysicist 1y ago
China does have illusions of egalitarianism, though. They don't call themselves the "Communist" party without reason. And enterprise, to my understanding, is much, much freer in Singapore than it is in China.
ebbi 1y ago
I'm not saying democracy is a failed project all together, but something that has been on my mind a lot recently is that democracy is quite inefficient - where I'm from anyway (New Zealand). We are a small country, with general elections every four years. So most of the decisions our government takes a less bold, and optimized for short term interests and to get the next cycle vote. And when we have had times a government has made plans for a large infrastructure project, a successive government will come in and undo all of that planning. For example, Auckland, our major economic hub, doesn't even have proper public transportation, and now citizens are battling with issues commuting to and from work. I think part of Singapore's success has been it's ability to make bold decisions and see it through without worrying about short term election cycles.

dyauspitr 1y ago

It’s a city state, calling it a country is a stretch.

markdown 1y ago
[flagged]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

veqq 1y ago

> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? China economically functions similarly to Singapore, with long documented connections and explicit emulation. In 1978, Deng Xiaoping already began this and hundreds of thousands of Chinese officials and leaders were trained there and in industrial parks with the explicit goal of knowledge sharing with the dream of "planting 1000 Singapores". [0, 1, 2, 3] > fascist states, but without the typical racist scapegoating Tangential, but Hitler added racism; Mussolini, Salazar, Franco/de Rivera (who used large Arab and Berber forces fighting the Republicans in Spain) etc. had none of that (until Hitler forced Mussolini's hand in 1938). Brazilian integralists and many other fascisms also weren't racially based. [0] https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3042046/does-china-still-have-anything-learn-singapore https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3042046/does... [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24761028.2021.1951480 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24761028.2021.1... [2] https://www.fairobserver.com/economics/china-and-its-mentor-singapore/ https://www.fairobserver.com/economics/china-and-its-mentor-... [3] https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/construction-singapore-model-mainland-china https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/construction-singapore-mo...

OkayPhysicist 1y ago
Eh, that's giving Mussolini more credit than he deserves. A core component of his platform was conquering swathes of Africa on colonial grounds.
- veqq 1y ago
  It isn't "racist scapegoating" to conquer places in Africa, because it's not blaming some race for internal problems.
- epolanski 1y ago
  That has nothing to do with fascism as you may not be aware but Italy started fighting colonial wars well before WW1 and the other hard on colonialists were all democracies.
linohh 1y ago
You might want to freshen up your history lessons with maybe some less revisionist sources, because Mussolini-wise I have some bad news for you.

Simulacra 1y ago

It could really just be the money.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

nexle 1y ago

> Singapore is an odd country The reason you find it odd is because you really can't find another country that the citizen have such a high trust towards the government and let the government do (almost) anything they wanted, yet the government doesn't abuse this power (mostly, at least) and continue focus on long term benefits of the country (rather than short term gains because the political party need to survive the next election in few years time) > One of the most militarized countries (#3 by military spending per capita) in the world, yet their military has barely been used. Ther reason is quite simple: Singapore is a very small country and it is very easily to be invaded. The high military spending is more of a deterent. > What would you even call their socioeconomic system? It is very much a free market capitalism with some state intervention, similar to many other countries. If anything, I would say Singapore is more free market than many western countries due to the fact that the government is very pro-business as the country is heavily rely on foreign businesses to survive.

chrischen 1y ago
No need to abuse anything until shit hits the fan.

arugulum 1y ago

>that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices I don't believe this is true. If you're talking about Non-Constituency Members of Parliament, they are consolation prizes given to best losers, and there are many things they cannot vote on. Moreover, the ruling party almost never lifts the party whip, i.e. members of the party CANNOT vote against the party line (without being kicked out of the party, which results in them being kicked out of parliament). In other words, since the ruling party already has a majority, any opposing votes literally do not matter. If you aren't talking about the NCMP scheme, then I do not know what you're talking about, as the ruling party does institute policies that are beneficial for the incumbent party.

userbinator 1y ago

What would you even call their socioeconomic system? Pure authoritarianism.

anon291 1y ago
And yet the average Singaporean is freer economically, socially, and ideologically.
- digianarchist 1y ago
  No freedom of press, no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, government owns/operates roughly ⅓ of the economy that features many state monopolies, the PAP maintains a gerrymandered control over the electorate, criticizing the government lands you in court for defamation and conveniently bankrupts can't run for parliament. Singapore is many things but not none of what you've written.
  - rauljordan2020 1y ago
    Singaporeans have insanely high quality of life and high pride in their system and people. They have an immense number of negative freedoms that the average person across the world could only dream of: freedom from violence, freedom from the devastating effects of drug addiction on families and society, freedom from poverty, freedom from corruption, freedom from instability. For the average person looking to raise a family, build a quality life, and just live well, Singapore is the perfect social contract. Don't like it? They have the most powerful or second most powerful passport in the world and can move anywhere else they see fit, yet they see their country as the best place they could be
    - digianarchist 1y ago
      Singaporeans have chosen economic security and social authoritarianism over the freedoms we enjoy in the West. That's their choice. A powerful passport doesn't mean they can move anywhere to live permanently and if they choose to become a citizen of the country they do move to then they will lose their Singaporean citizenship.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

hitekker 1y ago

If you haven't, go read "The Singapore Story" https://annas-archive.org/md5/6578558e0416e264a39da0448003ec13 https://annas-archive.org/md5/6578558e0416e264a39da0448003ec... If you're bored, skip to the Japanese invasion Chapter and then read on. Many unique things happened in Singapore to make Singapore, Singapore.

anon291 1y ago

Their social system is familiar to anyone with an Asian family

execat 1y ago

> An autocratic, single party state where the government is so popular that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices. It's not a single party state. Over 1/3rd of Singaporeans vote for the non-PAP candidates.

jameslk 1y ago

> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. What you’re describing is state capitalism, which is largely what the economic system is in China, Russia, and to some degree in the US. It’s where the government intervenes in the economy and controls critical corporations and industries