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Singapore to cane scammers as billions lost in financial crimes
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 11mo agoKyle Davies of 3AC first?
- tomcam 11mo agoNo. It's sad that you would think that way. The obvious correct answer is Bob Weilbacher, who fired me with no reason given from my cherished $3.75/hour job in the mailroom at Cal State Fullerton back in 1979.
- OkayPhysicist 11mo agoSingapore is an odd country. The only country, to my knowledge, that had independence thrust upon it without its consent. Extremely prosperous compared to its neighbors. An autocratic, single party state where the government is so popular that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices. One of the most militarized countries (#3 by military spending per capita) in the world, yet their military has barely been used. What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. The autocracy+militarization+heavily meddled with big business thing most resembles fascist states, but without the typical racist scapegoating (on the contrary, they've put a frankly inordinate amount of effort into preventing racial infighting). In most countries "The country also passed a new law earlier this year that would allow the police to control the bank accounts of individuals who they suspect to be scam targets and limit what transactions they can do." would probably set off alarm bells, but it does seem like business as usual in Singapore.
- neuchatel1968 11mo ago"Disneyland with the death penalty"
- Gigablah 11mo agoMeanwhile, the US carries out extrajudicial killings over drugs
- ghuffed 11mo ago[flagged]
- colechristensen 11mo agoIt's not at all clear they they're not just killing fishermen and migrants.
- epolanski 11mo agoI'm sure incidents happen, but I doubt there's many uses for privates in south America to own private submarines.
- exidy 11mo agoThat article is more than three decades old now. Time to give it a rest.
- djaouen 11mo ago> "The country also passed a new law earlier this year that would allow the police to control the bank accounts of individuals who they suspect to be scam targets and limit what transactions they can do." This is crazy to me. How far are we willing to go in terms of restricting freedoms for safety?
- tom_ 11mo agoIf you live in Singapore: don't ask us! If you disagree, vote against the government, and/or get out on the streets and protest! If you don't live in Singapore: it's not your problem.
- idle_zealot 11mo agoHuman rights are everyone's problem.
- tom_ 11mo agoThank you for this good response to my shit comment. It was intended to make some point along these lines, but, reading it again, it completely didn't.
- kelipso 11mo agoIt’s practically a one party state, no? And I’ve heard lots of stories of protesters getting disappeared after the police arrest them. Easy to say these things.
- OkayPhysicist 11mo agoThey are a one party state, but not for lack of trying. It just turns out that turning a country from a fishing village to a world-class economy in a couple decades buys you a lot of good will from the voters.
- em-bee 11mo ago
- radpanda 11mo agoI’ve never been there but whenever I read something about it I get the vibe that they’re an HOA with a military.
- dghlsakjg 11mo agoNot really. They are famous for having a lot of rules, but the instances where they really go wild are when someone has been particularly egregious. For the most part it is just insanely materialistic as the main downside. Most of the "harsh" rules make a tremendous amount of sense when you actually go there. Yeah, gum and spitting are illegal, and that is a good thing in a city as crowded as that with a significant population from countries where spitting is customary. Take an overnight train in China, and you will come to discover that you too appreciate a place where people can't just hork one up at will. To put it into perspective, SG is one of the rare tier 1 cities where you can get a Michelin meal from a street vendor (literally), after engaging the services of a prostitute, and drinking a beer in public. It isn't nearly as uptight as an HOA.
- inkyoto 11mo ago> Yeah, gum […] illegal […] This trope, long exhausted and repeatedly regurgitated, persists despite the reality having shifted considerably. In truth, chewing gum has been legally obtainable in Singapore for a long time and is available for purchase through local pharmacies.
- GeoAtreides 11mo agoBarbaric justice systems never make sense, they're just the last resort of the incompetent.
- spc476 11mo agoWilliam Gibson got a lifetime ban for calling it "Disney with the death penalty" in a Wired article.
- pxc 11mo agoThat's really interesting, because the Disney comparison could only be considered positive, and the death penalty thing is strictly speaking a fact and public knowledge.
- potato3732842 11mo ago>What would you even call their socioeconomic system? Asian Switzerland. And if that offends anyone it ought to be the Swiss (and any fanboys they may have who take offense on their behalf).
- anthem2025 11mo agoHow can such an authoritarian state be compared to Switzerland?
- JSR_FDED 11mo agoHmm, a clean, safe, prosperous country with world class education, top medical facilities, a technocratic highly competent government, reasonable taxes, and a place that people like to come for vacation…I can see how this would offend people
- pyuser583 11mo agoI’ve heard lots of other places called “Asian Switzerland.” Bhutan, and and rural parts of Myanmar.
- idle_zealot 11mo ago> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. The autocracy+militarization+heavily meddled with big business thing most resembles fascist states It's just State Capitalism, isn't it? Like China. A market-based economy with free enterprise, but no illusions of egalitarianism or democracy, enables the state to step in and manage and direct the market with effective regulation. In a democracy the state can manage this for a time, but eventually a private entity or group of entities leverages their power to influence law and co-opt democratic power, so the market starts steering its own regulation and you end up with fascism as a means of population control or a Russia-style cleptocratic oligarchy. We have not yet figured out how to sustain democracy + capitalism, if it's even possible. I worry that most will see the rise of countries like Singapore and China and the relative decline of the US/EU and conclude that democracy is a failed project all together.
- OkayPhysicist 11mo agoChina does have illusions of egalitarianism, though. They don't call themselves the "Communist" party without reason. And enterprise, to my understanding, is much, much freer in Singapore than it is in China.
- ebbi 11mo agoI'm not saying democracy is a failed project all together, but something that has been on my mind a lot recently is that democracy is quite inefficient - where I'm from anyway (New Zealand). We are a small country, with general elections every four years. So most of the decisions our government takes a less bold, and optimized for short term interests and to get the next cycle vote. And when we have had times a government has made plans for a large infrastructure project, a successive government will come in and undo all of that planning. For example, Auckland, our major economic hub, doesn't even have proper public transportation, and now citizens are battling with issues commuting to and from work. I think part of Singapore's success has been it's ability to make bold decisions and see it through without worrying about short term election cycles.
- dyauspitr 11mo agoIt’s a city state, calling it a country is a stretch.
- markdown 11mo ago[flagged]
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- veqq 11mo ago> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? China economically functions similarly to Singapore, with long documented connections and explicit emulation. In 1978, Deng Xiaoping already began this and hundreds of thousands of Chinese officials and leaders were trained there and in industrial parks with the explicit goal of knowledge sharing with the dream of "planting 1000 Singapores". [0, 1, 2, 3] > fascist states, but without the typical racist scapegoating Tangential, but Hitler added racism; Mussolini, Salazar, Franco/de Rivera (who used large Arab and Berber forces fighting the Republicans in Spain) etc. had none of that (until Hitler forced Mussolini's hand in 1938). Brazilian integralists and many other fascisms also weren't racially based. [0] https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3042046/does-china-still-have-anything-learn-singapore https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3042046/does... [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24761028.2021.1951480 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24761028.2021.1... [2] https://www.fairobserver.com/economics/china-and-its-mentor-singapore/ https://www.fairobserver.com/economics/china-and-its-mentor-... [3] https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/construction-singapore-model-mainland-china https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/construction-singapore-mo...
- OkayPhysicist 11mo agoEh, that's giving Mussolini more credit than he deserves. A core component of his platform was conquering swathes of Africa on colonial grounds.
- veqq 11mo agoIt isn't "racist scapegoating" to conquer places in Africa, because it's not blaming some race for internal problems.
- epolanski 11mo agoThat has nothing to do with fascism as you may not be aware but Italy started fighting colonial wars well before WW1 and the other hard on colonialists were all democracies.
- linohh 11mo agoYou might want to freshen up your history lessons with maybe some less revisionist sources, because Mussolini-wise I have some bad news for you.
- Simulacra 11mo agoIt could really just be the money.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- nexle 11mo ago> Singapore is an odd country The reason you find it odd is because you really can't find another country that the citizen have such a high trust towards the government and let the government do (almost) anything they wanted, yet the government doesn't abuse this power (mostly, at least) and continue focus on long term benefits of the country (rather than short term gains because the political party need to survive the next election in few years time) > One of the most militarized countries (#3 by military spending per capita) in the world, yet their military has barely been used. Ther reason is quite simple: Singapore is a very small country and it is very easily to be invaded. The high military spending is more of a deterent. > What would you even call their socioeconomic system? It is very much a free market capitalism with some state intervention, similar to many other countries. If anything, I would say Singapore is more free market than many western countries due to the fact that the government is very pro-business as the country is heavily rely on foreign businesses to survive.
- chrischen 11mo agoNo need to abuse anything until shit hits the fan.
- arugulum 11mo ago>that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices I don't believe this is true. If you're talking about Non-Constituency Members of Parliament, they are consolation prizes given to best losers, and there are many things they cannot vote on. Moreover, the ruling party almost never lifts the party whip, i.e. members of the party CANNOT vote against the party line (without being kicked out of the party, which results in them being kicked out of parliament). In other words, since the ruling party already has a majority, any opposing votes literally do not matter. If you aren't talking about the NCMP scheme, then I do not know what you're talking about, as the ruling party does institute policies that are beneficial for the incumbent party.
- userbinator 11mo agoWhat would you even call their socioeconomic system? Pure authoritarianism.
- anon291 11mo agoAnd yet the average Singaporean is freer economically, socially, and ideologically.
- digianarchist 11mo agoNo freedom of press, no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, government owns/operates roughly ⅓ of the economy that features many state monopolies, the PAP maintains a gerrymandered control over the electorate, criticizing the government lands you in court for defamation and conveniently bankrupts can't run for parliament. Singapore is many things but not none of what you've written.
- rauljordan2020 11mo agoSingaporeans have insanely high quality of life and high pride in their system and people. They have an immense number of negative freedoms that the average person across the world could only dream of: freedom from violence, freedom from the devastating effects of drug addiction on families and society, freedom from poverty, freedom from corruption, freedom from instability. For the average person looking to raise a family, build a quality life, and just live well, Singapore is the perfect social contract. Don't like it? They have the most powerful or second most powerful passport in the world and can move anywhere else they see fit, yet they see their country as the best place they could be
- digianarchist 11mo agoSingaporeans have chosen economic security and social authoritarianism over the freedoms we enjoy in the West. That's their choice. A powerful passport doesn't mean they can move anywhere to live permanently and if they choose to become a citizen of the country they do move to then they will lose their Singaporean citizenship.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- hitekker 11mo agoIf you haven't, go read "The Singapore Story" https://annas-archive.org/md5/6578558e0416e264a39da0448003ec13 https://annas-archive.org/md5/6578558e0416e264a39da0448003ec... If you're bored, skip to the Japanese invasion Chapter and then read on. Many unique things happened in Singapore to make Singapore, Singapore.
- anon291 11mo agoTheir social system is familiar to anyone with an Asian family
- execat 11mo ago> An autocratic, single party state where the government is so popular that they need to rig their elections against themselves to get dissenting voices. It's not a single party state. Over 1/3rd of Singaporeans vote for the non-PAP candidates.
- jameslk 11mo ago> What would you even call their socioeconomic system? They're not exactly doing neoliberal capitalism, their government is far too involved for that. They're not socialist, they've got free enterprise galore. What you’re describing is state capitalism, which is largely what the economic system is in China, Russia, and to some degree in the US. It’s where the government intervenes in the economy and controls critical corporations and industries
- linohh 11mo agoI've been in banking for quite some time of my life and hands down, there is no country in the world that makes bankers with let's say questionable skills in risk assessment and decision making more afraid. Millions in fines, maybe more? Zero fucks given. Messing with regulators in Singapore? Not worth it. Wouldn't be surprised if they send or have sent people out to tell the somewhat gory stories of the canings in Singapore. Personally, I don't believe in preventive effects of draconian punishment, but I also don't believe in cokeheads. Being a cokehead in Singapore means risking facing the mandatory death sentence for posession of more than 30g of cocaine, which depending on the habit is a months supply max for some.
- colechristensen 11mo ago>depending on the habit is a months supply max for some People with substance abuse problems are generally the "get more every day or two" type not the "have a month's supply on hand" type. And I really believe more in corporal punishment for a lot of things than the maze of fines, legal costs, and probation which really seems more like complicated inconvenience. For drunk driving, sexual assault, and grand theft the appropriate punishment for the first offense is a public beating where they stop half way through and give you a chance to admit guilt and apologize on camera or they keep going. It would be particularly good for any fraud that nets you, say over a million dollars. Only for the kinds of crimes that have significant victims.
- casenmgreen 11mo ago> For drunk driving, sexual assault, and grand theft the appropriate punishment for the first offense is a public beating where they stop half way through and give you a chance to admit guilt and apologize on camera or they keep going. This is obscene. It is torture. If you torture people, they usually confess, regardless of innocence or guilt.
- colechristensen 11mo agoIt isn't at the trial, it's after they're found guilty. And yes, call it what you want but yes I'm advocating for pain in exchange for serious crime.
- JSR_FDED 11mo agoThe damage done by scammers is enormous. Families losing their life’s savings. Quite often these scams are perpetrated on less sophisticated people so the economic damage to them is even more devastating. It’s not like the government woke up one day and started to cane scammers. There have been years of educational programs in different languages. A campaign with special focus on protecting the elderly. Every time you transfer money with your online banking app you get a warning about scammers. They instituted an SMS registry that results in unknown numbers (for instance pretending to be your bank) showing up as “LIKELY SCAM” on your phone. That hasn’t eradicated the problem, so now the punishment goes up. Imagine a government that actually protects its citizens…
- shoobiedoo 11mo agoMy mom just lost about fifteen thousand dollars. The sad part is, she knew full well, for years now, if you hear a certain accent from a cold call, just hang up the phone. She received calls almost every day since she still needs a landline to talk to family, so she is very well versed in avoiding them. So for her to fall for a scam has us worried, it might be a sign of neurodegenerative disease. She went from sharp as a tack when it came to ignoring scammers, to falling into it. I'm sure this is a very common theme. These parasites prey on the elderly losing their mental acuity
- cbdevidal 11mo agoOr they used a different accent
- georgefrowny 11mo agoRelying on accents as a tell is only going to get less predictive due to real time accent conversion services like https://krisp.ai/ai-accent-conversion/ https://krisp.ai/ai-accent-conversion/
- JSR_FDED 11mo agoThere should be a special place in hell for people who take advantage of the elderly
- colonial 11mo agoAfter spending a summer working in Singapore, I fully support introducing corporal punishment to America (and accelerated capital punishment for drug trafficking offenses.) It turns out that - surprise! - actually punishing criminals where it hurts, even for "petty" offenses, works wonders for making your country a nice place to live. Now, obviously, Singapore's methods aren't perfect - a common complaint I heard was that money can buy you kid gloves - and I imagine the Supreme Court smackdown over caning versus the 8th Amendment would be biblical. But any return to broken windows governance would be much appreciated.
- cedws 11mo agoThe way I think of is is that crime is like a market. When the consequences are low, crime will rise. If you introduce such severe consequences for crimes that criminals never dare do it again, crime will inevitably fall. Singapore seems to get this but none of the rest of us do.
- Gud 11mo agoA few months is not enough to get a good understanding of the local culture. I have lived in a lot of places.
- colonial 11mo agoYou don't need years to look around and see that (unlike much of the US) there are no homeless addicts, fare evaders, or vandals on the transit in Singapore. (Or, for that matter, murderous psychos with dozens of prior arrests.) Logically, therefore, they have superior crime policy we should learn from - nothing to do with culture.
- Gud 11mo agoBut you are wrong. It is entirely possible that the population of Singapore would act exactly the same with a lax policy. I live in Switzerland. There is no public caning for chewing bubble gum here. Yet it is an extremely nice place to live in. I have also lived in Dubai where there is sharia law. Also a nice place for most people
- ETH_start 11mo agoOne thing I noticed when I was traveling in Singapore is that the businesses don't put their patio chairs away at night because unlike where I'm originally from on the West Coast, they won't get stolen if left out. I think there's thousands of these small benefits that come with a low crime society that are hard to quantify but cumulatively add up.
- esperent 11mo agoDoes the low crime come from the strict laws, or from being tiny? My money is that most of it is the latter. Also, I'd say that it's only low crime when it comes to small crimes. If you include financial crime then it's probably the opposite.