4 ms·

This is a crazy notion. If I have to like everybody to work with them, we can't have a civilization because I don't like most people. I like some people. Every

This is a crazy notion. If I have to like everybody to work with them, we can't have a civilization because I don't like most people. I like some people. Everybody else I work with if they're willing to work with me. Saying that we all have to agree with each other is basically giving up on the political project entirely, and going back to strongman rulers who organize by demanding conformity. Very relevant in these times. > we should make it as feasible as possible for as many people as possible to never have to do this. No, we should make it impossible to avoid so people can't sneak into adulthood without being properly socialized.

abenga 1y ago
There is a wide gulf between "I don't like this person" and "this person's whole existence should be a crime".
- vacuity 1y ago
  I think that many people leaning toward the latter are "merely" misguided, though I certainly don't think that to correct them would be easy. However, I genuinely think some people are taken to be hateful when they aren't. Discussion of such cases should not be taken with the presumption that the accusations of hate are true, because then truth gives way to opinion. A good cause is a good cause, but realization invites bias.
JoshTriplett 1y ago
Nope. I won't work with people who think my friends shouldn't exist. And I won't work with people who think doing that is somehow childish.
- echelon 1y ago
  Imagine the flip side. We could easily wind up in that world too. The best defense against polarization is a strong and cohesive middle ground. If you pull to far in the other way, all the bonds break. And it's a race for each interest group to seize power, rather than having some intermediating force that serves as a buffer. Again: look at the political climate. It's a reaction. The pendulum is swinging harder and harder because we've given up on the middle ground. Most of the people you hate (and you do seem to dislike them at least a little bit) have honestly never had an LGBT friend. Imagine if they did how that might change them. Instead they hear voices from the LGBT community that want to outlaw them and their way of life. That's pretty hostile. And definitely is going to be met with the same attitude you're giving them. I'm LGBT and I have many conservative friends. They're more apt to come around to it than you believe. You're shutting down any conversation before it can even happen.
  - vacuity 1y ago
    > Instead they hear voices from the LGBT community Oftentimes, the voices are outside. I think you're somewhat optimistic, and "the middle ground" is not a magical place. It's easy to fall into a false sense of security that comes from making (likely valid) criticisms of caricatured groups. Middle ground should not be sought for its own sake, or else it becomes useless (akin to Goodhart's law; roughly "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"). People should embrace a diversity of values, but the burden is to stay true to a set of values and push for the truth.
- Oper_52 1y ago
  > people who think my friends shouldn't exist What does this mean? Are you talking about people who openly support actual murder? Almost everyone is opposed to that, of course.
  - tczMUFlmoNk 1y ago
    College athlete Lia Smith died by suicide last week after years of targeted harassment and attacks from the people we're talking about. At some point, when the institutions of power do everything they can to demonize your existence, strip you of your accomplishments, and vilify you publicly—across millions of people nationwide—it doesn't matter whether you call it murder or not. The deaths rack up all the same.
    - deleted 1y ago
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    - Oper_52 1y ago
      Perhaps it would be best not to spread unverified speculation about possible reasons for someone choosing to die by suicide.
      - thunderfork 1y ago
        There was no speculation about a causal relationship in the post you're replying to
        vacuity 1y ago
        In fact, by my reading, that post is saying that the actual cause is immaterial in the face of campaigning that essentially tried to be the cause.

abenga 1y ago

There is a wide gulf between "I don't like this person" and "this person's whole existence should be a crime".

vacuity 1y ago
I think that many people leaning toward the latter are "merely" misguided, though I certainly don't think that to correct them would be easy. However, I genuinely think some people are taken to be hateful when they aren't. Discussion of such cases should not be taken with the presumption that the accusations of hate are true, because then truth gives way to opinion. A good cause is a good cause, but realization invites bias.

JoshTriplett 1y ago

Nope. I won't work with people who think my friends shouldn't exist. And I won't work with people who think doing that is somehow childish.

echelon 1y ago
Imagine the flip side. We could easily wind up in that world too. The best defense against polarization is a strong and cohesive middle ground. If you pull to far in the other way, all the bonds break. And it's a race for each interest group to seize power, rather than having some intermediating force that serves as a buffer. Again: look at the political climate. It's a reaction. The pendulum is swinging harder and harder because we've given up on the middle ground. Most of the people you hate (and you do seem to dislike them at least a little bit) have honestly never had an LGBT friend. Imagine if they did how that might change them. Instead they hear voices from the LGBT community that want to outlaw them and their way of life. That's pretty hostile. And definitely is going to be met with the same attitude you're giving them. I'm LGBT and I have many conservative friends. They're more apt to come around to it than you believe. You're shutting down any conversation before it can even happen.
- vacuity 1y ago
  > Instead they hear voices from the LGBT community Oftentimes, the voices are outside. I think you're somewhat optimistic, and "the middle ground" is not a magical place. It's easy to fall into a false sense of security that comes from making (likely valid) criticisms of caricatured groups. Middle ground should not be sought for its own sake, or else it becomes useless (akin to Goodhart's law; roughly "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"). People should embrace a diversity of values, but the burden is to stay true to a set of values and push for the truth.
Oper_52 1y ago
> people who think my friends shouldn't exist What does this mean? Are you talking about people who openly support actual murder? Almost everyone is opposed to that, of course.
- tczMUFlmoNk 1y ago
  College athlete Lia Smith died by suicide last week after years of targeted harassment and attacks from the people we're talking about. At some point, when the institutions of power do everything they can to demonize your existence, strip you of your accomplishments, and vilify you publicly—across millions of people nationwide—it doesn't matter whether you call it murder or not. The deaths rack up all the same.
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  - Oper_52 1y ago
    Perhaps it would be best not to spread unverified speculation about possible reasons for someone choosing to die by suicide.
    - thunderfork 1y ago
      There was no speculation about a causal relationship in the post you're replying to
      - vacuity 1y ago
        In fact, by my reading, that post is saying that the actual cause is immaterial in the face of campaigning that essentially tried to be the cause.