4 ms·

There is a simpler explanation - HVAC jobs are directly influenced by the push to covert everything to heat-pumps. And good heat-pumps are expensive. So when yo

by harikb 11mo ago

There is a simpler explanation - HVAC jobs are directly influenced by the push to covert everything to heat-pumps. And good heat-pumps are expensive. So when you install a $15K to $25K, installation fee also goes up. I am surprised Solar isn't up there. Panels are cheap, install is what we pay for 10 years+

cake-rusk 11mo ago
An AC is a heat pump too.
- bhhaskin 11mo ago
  A Heat pump is just AC with more valves.
- korhojoa 11mo ago
  I don't know what the deal is about people saying heat pumps are expensive. They used to be a little pricier than AC units, but it's just a 4-way valve in addition to one. I just looked it up, and I can buy a heat pump for 200-400 euros (depending on desired output), installation is ~400 euros. Why are you paying 20-30x for something identical? This sounds like a price difference created by government behavior, like with solar panels and related hardware which seem to be significantly overpriced in north america.
  - danans 11mo ago
    > This sounds like a price difference created by government behavior It's a price difference created by market segmentation of heat pumps as a luxury product in the US, and the relative lack of qualified installers due to our under-investment in education in the trades.
  - Gigachad 11mo ago
    Is this some country specific terminology? At least in Australia I've never seen an air conditioner that didn't use heat pump technology. Aside from evaporative cooling that is.
    - kelnos 11mo ago
      Air conditioners (the things that can make a room colder, but not hotter), are indeed heat pumps, but in the US when we refer to a "heat pump" we mean the same technology, but with a reversing valve so that it can make rooms both colder and hotter.
      - Gigachad 11mo ago
        Interesting. I’ve never seen one that couldn’t heat and cool before. Even crusty 30 year old window units can do both. Seems almost absurd to not utilise it both ways.
  - numpad0 11mo ago
    You have to specifically look for cooling only AC where I am. Most ACs come with heat-dehumidify-cool mode selection and therefore qualify as "heat pumps", as far as how the term is used. I think it's just quirks of regions that traditionally didn't have ACs by default.
bradlys 11mo ago
It's not even that. It's that rich people are the only thing the trades are catering to now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_uSJVCYds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_uSJVCYds Example of a solar install that was under $20k via DIY - maybe took this guy 1-2 weeks of full-time work. But he was quoted $90k and he did most of it himself - only hiring a backhoe operator to move some dirt around. We're at the point where the trades are only going to cater to rich/desperate people because the margin they'd make on a job that is DIY-able (and charged a fair price) is not worth it to them. Why do 5-6 low margin jobs when you can do 1 high margin (rip-off) job? Your only competition out there is someone with the will to do it. Builders in CA are massive ripoffs as well. I think the only way you bring costs from trades down is by having all your workers in-house - which is only doable for corporations. Your average homeowner is just fucked and is gonna have to youtube everything.
- hexbin010 11mo ago
  > It's that rich people are the only thing the trades are catering to now. This is my gut feeling too. I've known so many rich people who just accept whatever number a tradesperson quotes. There is no way that hasn't had a mass effect
  - quadrifoliate 11mo ago
    I'm not rich (or at least, don't feel rich with the enormous cost increases on everything combined with no promotions for 3 years) -- but how do you negotiate with a tradesperson exactly? All of the major trade companies around where I live (HVAC, plumbing, electrical etc.) in the US have rates that they quote before the person will even show up. As a new homeowner who didn't grow up in the US, that's all I've ever dealt with. If the answer is “Give them a number you're comfortable with, and just DIY it as an alternative” -- that's fine, and I do it for anything simple; but for the remaining ones, I have already made a determination that learning this skill would be way more in terms of time invested than the $500 or whatever absurd number they are quoting for a simple repair (this logic likely breaks down over time, and I'm trying to invest more time into learning more house repairs). I have tried pre-purchasing some parts in the past; and asking them to use them for the install -- that one had some success and a guy told me how much his company marks up parts (n00%). I do try to get multiple quotes for something, but the difference between them isn't usually appreciable; they're all absurdly high. I've tried to ask them for a parts v/s labor breakdown in the past; some won't even provide that.
turtlebits 11mo ago
Good mini splits aren't expensive. They're expensive because HVAC installers are fleecing US consumers. A majority of mini splits are made in China and are inexpensive and reliable because they're so pervasive in Asia. Most are rebadged Midea or Gree. You can get a decent mini split for <1.5K and install it yourself for $200 in tools.
- jonway 11mo ago
  It is expensive, but I think you're underestimating the costs. If the AC catches fire because your electrician skills are bad, what happens? I guess you can rent a ladder if you need one, but they're at least $200 if your split is on the second floor and ladders can be deceptively tricky, and load ratings must be considered. Condensation can kill you and be an extreme cost with mold. Your first mini split is going to take a real long time to install, I promise, assuming you size it right. There is a non trivial risk to life and limb. This is one of those "Reality has a surprising amount of detail" things.
  - trollbridge 11mo ago
    Catches fire? The amount of electrical work with installing a minisplit is minimal. And HVAC technicians are not electricians, either. The skill involved is that of tightening screws on screw terminals.
    - jonway 11mo ago
      You're gonna plug it into the outlet? its going to probably need a circuit at the breaker.
  - turtlebits 11mo ago
    If you're not comfortable with the electrical work, hire an electrician. Of course don't DIY it if you're not comfortable, but a simple exterior wall install is fairly straightforward. On a second floor install, (with the condenser on the ground) you only need a small egress hole you can drill from the interior. You'd need a ladder just to secure/cover the lineset.

by harikb 11mo ago

cake-rusk 11mo ago

An AC is a heat pump too.

bhhaskin 11mo ago
A Heat pump is just AC with more valves.
korhojoa 11mo ago
I don't know what the deal is about people saying heat pumps are expensive. They used to be a little pricier than AC units, but it's just a 4-way valve in addition to one. I just looked it up, and I can buy a heat pump for 200-400 euros (depending on desired output), installation is ~400 euros. Why are you paying 20-30x for something identical? This sounds like a price difference created by government behavior, like with solar panels and related hardware which seem to be significantly overpriced in north america.
- danans 11mo ago
  > This sounds like a price difference created by government behavior It's a price difference created by market segmentation of heat pumps as a luxury product in the US, and the relative lack of qualified installers due to our under-investment in education in the trades.
- Gigachad 11mo ago
  Is this some country specific terminology? At least in Australia I've never seen an air conditioner that didn't use heat pump technology. Aside from evaporative cooling that is.
  - kelnos 11mo ago
    Air conditioners (the things that can make a room colder, but not hotter), are indeed heat pumps, but in the US when we refer to a "heat pump" we mean the same technology, but with a reversing valve so that it can make rooms both colder and hotter.
    - Gigachad 11mo ago
      Interesting. I’ve never seen one that couldn’t heat and cool before. Even crusty 30 year old window units can do both. Seems almost absurd to not utilise it both ways.
- numpad0 11mo ago
  You have to specifically look for cooling only AC where I am. Most ACs come with heat-dehumidify-cool mode selection and therefore qualify as "heat pumps", as far as how the term is used. I think it's just quirks of regions that traditionally didn't have ACs by default.

bradlys 11mo ago

It's not even that. It's that rich people are the only thing the trades are catering to now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_uSJVCYds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_uSJVCYds Example of a solar install that was under $20k via DIY - maybe took this guy 1-2 weeks of full-time work. But he was quoted $90k and he did most of it himself - only hiring a backhoe operator to move some dirt around. We're at the point where the trades are only going to cater to rich/desperate people because the margin they'd make on a job that is DIY-able (and charged a fair price) is not worth it to them. Why do 5-6 low margin jobs when you can do 1 high margin (rip-off) job? Your only competition out there is someone with the will to do it. Builders in CA are massive ripoffs as well. I think the only way you bring costs from trades down is by having all your workers in-house - which is only doable for corporations. Your average homeowner is just fucked and is gonna have to youtube everything.

hexbin010 11mo ago
> It's that rich people are the only thing the trades are catering to now. This is my gut feeling too. I've known so many rich people who just accept whatever number a tradesperson quotes. There is no way that hasn't had a mass effect
- quadrifoliate 11mo ago
  I'm not rich (or at least, don't feel rich with the enormous cost increases on everything combined with no promotions for 3 years) -- but how do you negotiate with a tradesperson exactly? All of the major trade companies around where I live (HVAC, plumbing, electrical etc.) in the US have rates that they quote before the person will even show up. As a new homeowner who didn't grow up in the US, that's all I've ever dealt with. If the answer is “Give them a number you're comfortable with, and just DIY it as an alternative” -- that's fine, and I do it for anything simple; but for the remaining ones, I have already made a determination that learning this skill would be way more in terms of time invested than the $500 or whatever absurd number they are quoting for a simple repair (this logic likely breaks down over time, and I'm trying to invest more time into learning more house repairs). I have tried pre-purchasing some parts in the past; and asking them to use them for the install -- that one had some success and a guy told me how much his company marks up parts (n00%). I do try to get multiple quotes for something, but the difference between them isn't usually appreciable; they're all absurdly high. I've tried to ask them for a parts v/s labor breakdown in the past; some won't even provide that.

turtlebits 11mo ago

Good mini splits aren't expensive. They're expensive because HVAC installers are fleecing US consumers. A majority of mini splits are made in China and are inexpensive and reliable because they're so pervasive in Asia. Most are rebadged Midea or Gree. You can get a decent mini split for <1.5K and install it yourself for $200 in tools.

jonway 11mo ago
It is expensive, but I think you're underestimating the costs. If the AC catches fire because your electrician skills are bad, what happens? I guess you can rent a ladder if you need one, but they're at least $200 if your split is on the second floor and ladders can be deceptively tricky, and load ratings must be considered. Condensation can kill you and be an extreme cost with mold. Your first mini split is going to take a real long time to install, I promise, assuming you size it right. There is a non trivial risk to life and limb. This is one of those "Reality has a surprising amount of detail" things.
- trollbridge 11mo ago
  Catches fire? The amount of electrical work with installing a minisplit is minimal. And HVAC technicians are not electricians, either. The skill involved is that of tightening screws on screw terminals.
  - jonway 11mo ago
    You're gonna plug it into the outlet? its going to probably need a circuit at the breaker.
- turtlebits 11mo ago
  If you're not comfortable with the electrical work, hire an electrician. Of course don't DIY it if you're not comfortable, but a simple exterior wall install is fairly straightforward. On a second floor install, (with the condenser on the ground) you only need a small egress hole you can drill from the interior. You'd need a ladder just to secure/cover the lineset.