4 ms·

Color me skeptical, but the only reason the auto-manufacturers are doing this is because if they don't, they will loos out to the hybrid and electric markets.

Color me skeptical, but the only reason the auto-manufacturers are doing this is because if they don't, they will loos out to the hybrid and electric markets. You are skeptical of GDI's effectiveness (to help competitiveness), based on your perception that it is in fact effective? Without the hybrid and electric markets, they wouldn't bother. There are no other market pressures to improve gasoline engine efficiency and performance? What about: Direct competition from other gasoline-engine makers. Fuel cost. Market-distorting legislation (CAFE, etc.).

RiderOfGiraffes 18y ago
Upon re-reading before submission, this is too long. I remind you of Pascal's lament. My apologies. It's also slightly rambly, and shows that it's been edited lots of times. Again, sorry. I don't have time now to take it out and write it more coherently. I wrote: Color me skeptical, but the only reason the auto-manufacturers are doing this is because if they don't, they will lose out to the hybrid and electric markets. gravitycop wrote: You are skeptical of GDI's effectiveness (to help competitiveness), based on your perception that it is in fact effective? No - you appear to have misunderstood my point. GDI is certainly effective at reducing fuel consumption. I don't exactly know all of the technological ins and outs, but I have seen reports that engines in Europe have had very similar technology for a long time. Certainly I get over 40mpg in my petrol car, and my wife gets over 60mpg in her diesel. I'm pretty sure it does work. My point is that manufacturers haven't bothered seriously investigating things like this, because the market forces have not previously been sufficiently strong. I wrote: Without the hybrid and electric markets, they wouldn't bother. gravitycop asked: There are no other market pressures to improve gasoline engine efficiency and performance? What about: Direct competition from other gasoline-engine makers. Fuel cost. Market-distorting legislation (CAFE, etc.). I'm not claiming there are no other market forces. I do, however, believe that it is only since the wider availability of hybrid/electric vehicles that the petroleum-based engines in the USA have started to improve significantly. I do not have scientific evidence, but I do not believe this to be a coincidence. It is my opinion. It may be wrong. I'm not particularly an advocate of either petrol of diesel, and my comment was not intended to indicate a preference. I simply believe that fuel efficiency has not been of primary concern to manufacturers. Secondary, yes. Primary, no. This is probably not the place to have an extended onversation about the topic, but, in short, I believe that the petroleum-based engine manufacturers in the USA are only now starting to take seriously the problem of producing efficient engines. I believe that engines in Europe are generally more efficient, and the USA manufacturers are starting to use similar technology and trumpet it as "all new and improved!!" Whether my opinions on this are relevant to HN is doubtful. For completeness, I also believe their change of heart is primarily driven by the advent of affordable alternatives. Without the hybrid/electric alternative I believe they won't bother too much about fuel efficiency. I don't think the market forces even now would be strong enough. With the hybrid/electric alternative, they are. Hence the dilemma I tried to raise, probably badly. I hope that makes my position clearer. It's also probably entirely irrelevant, and adds little value. I shan't reply again unless I think it will.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  I have seen reports that engines in Europe have had very similar technology for a long time. Certainly I get over 40mpg in my petrol car http://www.google.com/search?q=imperial+gallons+to+us+gallons http://www.google.com/search?q=imperial+gallons+to+us+gallon... 1 Imperial gallon = 1.20095042 US gallons http://www.google.com/search?q=40+us+gallons+to+imperial+gallons http://www.google.com/search?q=40+us+gallons+to+imperial+gal... 40 US gallons = 33.3069536 Imperial gallons If you haven't corrected, you are achieving over 33.3 miles per U.S. gallon when driving your high-smog-pollution (i.e. European liberal smog-emission standard, which allows ceteris paribus for higher fuel economy) gasoline-powered car. [EDIT] If you have corrected, your results are still not comparable, since they were achieve in a high-smog, and therefore illegal for the U.S. market, car.
  - RiderOfGiraffes 18y ago
    Sorry for not specifying, but I've already corrected for that. I don't deny that the diesel car probably wouldn't meet the emission standards in the USA (which bit? Hmm) but that's not my point. And I don't really care. I wish I hadn't bothered to comment. What happens to your replies if I delete my submissions/comments?
    - gravitycop 18y ago
      I don't deny that the diesel car probably wouldn't meet the emission standards in the USA Both the diesel and gasoline (petrol) cars, if made for the European market, do not meet U.S. smog-emission standards and therefore are not directly comparable in terms of fuel-economy.
      - RiderOfGiraffes 18y ago
        Somehow this has turned into a Europe vs USA "discussion". That was not my intention. I have no particular axe to grind, being neither European, not American. Further, it seems clear that the point I was trying to make is not going to be heard, and other points - no doubt valid, but nonetheless tangential - are going to dominate. Perhaps it's wrong, perhaps no one wants to hear it. Perhaps I just can't express myself clearly enough. So I'm simply going to walk away from this thread. You have made many valid points which I will remember. Thank you.

RiderOfGiraffes 18y ago

Upon re-reading before submission, this is too long. I remind you of Pascal's lament. My apologies. It's also slightly rambly, and shows that it's been edited lots of times. Again, sorry. I don't have time now to take it out and write it more coherently. I wrote: Color me skeptical, but the only reason the auto-manufacturers are doing this is because if they don't, they will lose out to the hybrid and electric markets. gravitycop wrote: You are skeptical of GDI's effectiveness (to help competitiveness), based on your perception that it is in fact effective? No - you appear to have misunderstood my point. GDI is certainly effective at reducing fuel consumption. I don't exactly know all of the technological ins and outs, but I have seen reports that engines in Europe have had very similar technology for a long time. Certainly I get over 40mpg in my petrol car, and my wife gets over 60mpg in her diesel. I'm pretty sure it does work. My point is that manufacturers haven't bothered seriously investigating things like this, because the market forces have not previously been sufficiently strong. I wrote: Without the hybrid and electric markets, they wouldn't bother. gravitycop asked: There are no other market pressures to improve gasoline engine efficiency and performance? What about: Direct competition from other gasoline-engine makers. Fuel cost. Market-distorting legislation (CAFE, etc.). I'm not claiming there are no other market forces. I do, however, believe that it is only since the wider availability of hybrid/electric vehicles that the petroleum-based engines in the USA have started to improve significantly. I do not have scientific evidence, but I do not believe this to be a coincidence. It is my opinion. It may be wrong. I'm not particularly an advocate of either petrol of diesel, and my comment was not intended to indicate a preference. I simply believe that fuel efficiency has not been of primary concern to manufacturers. Secondary, yes. Primary, no. This is probably not the place to have an extended onversation about the topic, but, in short, I believe that the petroleum-based engine manufacturers in the USA are only now starting to take seriously the problem of producing efficient engines. I believe that engines in Europe are generally more efficient, and the USA manufacturers are starting to use similar technology and trumpet it as "all new and improved!!" Whether my opinions on this are relevant to HN is doubtful. For completeness, I also believe their change of heart is primarily driven by the advent of affordable alternatives. Without the hybrid/electric alternative I believe they won't bother too much about fuel efficiency. I don't think the market forces even now would be strong enough. With the hybrid/electric alternative, they are. Hence the dilemma I tried to raise, probably badly. I hope that makes my position clearer. It's also probably entirely irrelevant, and adds little value. I shan't reply again unless I think it will.

gravitycop 18y ago
I have seen reports that engines in Europe have had very similar technology for a long time. Certainly I get over 40mpg in my petrol car http://www.google.com/search?q=imperial+gallons+to+us+gallons http://www.google.com/search?q=imperial+gallons+to+us+gallon... 1 Imperial gallon = 1.20095042 US gallons http://www.google.com/search?q=40+us+gallons+to+imperial+gallons http://www.google.com/search?q=40+us+gallons+to+imperial+gal... 40 US gallons = 33.3069536 Imperial gallons If you haven't corrected, you are achieving over 33.3 miles per U.S. gallon when driving your high-smog-pollution (i.e. European liberal smog-emission standard, which allows ceteris paribus for higher fuel economy) gasoline-powered car. [EDIT] If you have corrected, your results are still not comparable, since they were achieve in a high-smog, and therefore illegal for the U.S. market, car.
- RiderOfGiraffes 18y ago
  Sorry for not specifying, but I've already corrected for that. I don't deny that the diesel car probably wouldn't meet the emission standards in the USA (which bit? Hmm) but that's not my point. And I don't really care. I wish I hadn't bothered to comment. What happens to your replies if I delete my submissions/comments?
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    I don't deny that the diesel car probably wouldn't meet the emission standards in the USA Both the diesel and gasoline (petrol) cars, if made for the European market, do not meet U.S. smog-emission standards and therefore are not directly comparable in terms of fuel-economy.
    - RiderOfGiraffes 18y ago
      Somehow this has turned into a Europe vs USA "discussion". That was not my intention. I have no particular axe to grind, being neither European, not American. Further, it seems clear that the point I was trying to make is not going to be heard, and other points - no doubt valid, but nonetheless tangential - are going to dominate. Perhaps it's wrong, perhaps no one wants to hear it. Perhaps I just can't express myself clearly enough. So I'm simply going to walk away from this thread. You have made many valid points which I will remember. Thank you.