4 ms·

I don't know, I think you're conflating content streaming with central compute. Also, is percentage of screentime the relevant metric? We moved TV consumption

by jayd16 1y ago

I don't know, I think you're conflating content streaming with central compute. Also, is percentage of screentime the relevant metric? We moved TV consumption to the PC, does that take away from PCs? Many apps moved to the web but that's basically just streamed code to be run in a local VM. Is that a dumb terminal? It's not exactly local compute independent...

kamaal 1y ago
Nah, your parent comment has a valid point. Nearly entirety of the use cases of computers today don't involve running things on a 'personal computer' in any way. In fact these days, every one kind of agrees as little as hosting a spreadsheet on your computer is a bad idea. Cloud, where everything is backed up is the way to go.
- jayd16 1y ago
  But again, that's conflating web connected or even web required with mainframe compute and it's just not the same. PC was never 'no web'. No one actually 'counted every screw in their garage' as the PC killer app. It was always the web.
  - kamaal 1y ago
    In time Mainframes of this age will make a come back. This whole idea that you can connect lots of cheap low capacity boxes and drive down compute costs is already going away. In time people will go back to thinking compute as a variable of time taken to finish processing. That's the paradigm in the cloud compute world- you are billed for the TIME you use the box. Eventually people will just want to use something bigger that gets things done faster, hence you don't have to rent them for long.
    - galaxyLogic 1y ago
      It's also interesting that computing capacity is no longer discussed as instructions per second, but as Giga Watts.
  - eru 1y ago
    You know that the personal computer predates the web by quite a few years?
    - rambambram 1y ago
      This. Although briefly, there was at least a couple of years of using pc's without an internet connection. It's unthinkable now. And even back then, when you blinked with your eyes this time period was over.
      - eru 1y ago
        That was a pretty long blink? The personal computer arguably begins with VisiCalc in 1979. > Through the 1970s, personal computers had proven popular with electronics enthusiasts and hobbyists, however it was unclear why the general public might want to own one. This perception changed in 1979 with the release of VisiCalc from VisiCorp (originally Personal Software), which was the first spreadsheet application. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_personal_computers#VisiCalc_and_the_killer_app https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_personal_computers#... Mainstream use of the web really took off in the second half of the 1990s. Arbitrarily, let's say with the release of Windows 95. That's a quarter of a century you'd be blinking for.
    - jayd16 1y ago
      Sure, I was too hyperbolic. I simply meant connecting to the web didn't make it not a PC. The web really pushed adoption, much more than a person computation machine. It was the main use case for most folks.
  - morsch 1y ago
    One of the actual killer apps was gaming. Which still "happens" mostly on the client, today, even for networked games.
    - jhanschoo 1y ago
      Yet the most popular games are online-only and even more have their installation base's copies of the game managed by an online-first DRM.
      - morsch 1y ago
        That's true, but beside the point: even online only games or those gated by online DRM are not streamed or resemble a thin client architecture. That exists, too, with GeForce Now etc, which is why I said mostly.
      - jayd16 1y ago
        This is just factually inaccurate.
        jhanschoo 1y ago
        Please provide a more comprehensive response. I suppose I should be more specific as well. Some of the online only games I am thinking of are CoD, Fortnite, LoL and Minecraft. The online-first DRM I am thinking of is Steam.
        jayd16 1y ago
        Even half of your list is not "online only."
  - bandrami 1y ago
    Umm... I had a PC a decade before the web was invented, and I didn't even use the web for like another 5 years after it went public ("it's an interesting bit of tech but it will obviously never replace gopher...") The killer apps in the 80s were spreadsheets and desktop publishing.
eru 1y ago
> I don't know, I think you're conflating content streaming with central compute. Would you classify eg gmail as 'content streaming'?
- mikepurvis 1y ago
  But gmail is also a relatively complicated app, much of which runs locally on the client device.
  - MobiusHorizons 1y ago
    It is true that browsers do much more computation than "dumb" terminals, but there are still non-trivial parallels. Terminals do contain a processor and memory in order to handle settings menus, handle keyboard input and convert incoming sequences into a character array that is then displayed on the screen. A terminal is mostly useless without something attached to the other side, but not _completely_ useless. You can browse the menus, enable local echo, and use device as something like a scratchpad. I once drew up a schematic as ascii art this way. The contents are ephemeral and you have to take a photo of the screen or something in order to retain the data. Web browsers aren't quite that useless with no internet connection, some sites do offer offline capabilities (for example gmail). but even then, the vast majority of offline experiences exist to tide the user over until network can be re-established, instead of truly offering something useful to do locally. Probably the only mainstream counter-examples would be games.
  - WalterSear 1y ago
    It's still a SAAS, with components that couldn't be replicated client-side, such as AI.
    - galaxyLogic 1y ago
      Right. But does it matter whether computation happens on the client or server? Probabaly on both in the end. But yes I am looking forward to having my own LMS on my PC which only I have access to.
    - 1y ago

by jayd16 1y ago

kamaal 1y ago

Nah, your parent comment has a valid point. Nearly entirety of the use cases of computers today don't involve running things on a 'personal computer' in any way. In fact these days, every one kind of agrees as little as hosting a spreadsheet on your computer is a bad idea. Cloud, where everything is backed up is the way to go.

jayd16 1y ago
But again, that's conflating web connected or even web required with mainframe compute and it's just not the same. PC was never 'no web'. No one actually 'counted every screw in their garage' as the PC killer app. It was always the web.
- kamaal 1y ago
  In time Mainframes of this age will make a come back. This whole idea that you can connect lots of cheap low capacity boxes and drive down compute costs is already going away. In time people will go back to thinking compute as a variable of time taken to finish processing. That's the paradigm in the cloud compute world- you are billed for the TIME you use the box. Eventually people will just want to use something bigger that gets things done faster, hence you don't have to rent them for long.
  - galaxyLogic 1y ago
    It's also interesting that computing capacity is no longer discussed as instructions per second, but as Giga Watts.
- eru 1y ago
  You know that the personal computer predates the web by quite a few years?
  - rambambram 1y ago
    This. Although briefly, there was at least a couple of years of using pc's without an internet connection. It's unthinkable now. And even back then, when you blinked with your eyes this time period was over.
    - eru 1y ago
      That was a pretty long blink? The personal computer arguably begins with VisiCalc in 1979. > Through the 1970s, personal computers had proven popular with electronics enthusiasts and hobbyists, however it was unclear why the general public might want to own one. This perception changed in 1979 with the release of VisiCalc from VisiCorp (originally Personal Software), which was the first spreadsheet application. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_personal_computers#VisiCalc_and_the_killer_app https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_personal_computers#... Mainstream use of the web really took off in the second half of the 1990s. Arbitrarily, let's say with the release of Windows 95. That's a quarter of a century you'd be blinking for.
  - jayd16 1y ago
    Sure, I was too hyperbolic. I simply meant connecting to the web didn't make it not a PC. The web really pushed adoption, much more than a person computation machine. It was the main use case for most folks.
- morsch 1y ago
  One of the actual killer apps was gaming. Which still "happens" mostly on the client, today, even for networked games.
  - jhanschoo 1y ago
    Yet the most popular games are online-only and even more have their installation base's copies of the game managed by an online-first DRM.
    - morsch 1y ago
      That's true, but beside the point: even online only games or those gated by online DRM are not streamed or resemble a thin client architecture. That exists, too, with GeForce Now etc, which is why I said mostly.
    - jayd16 1y ago
      This is just factually inaccurate.
      - jhanschoo 1y ago
        Please provide a more comprehensive response. I suppose I should be more specific as well. Some of the online only games I am thinking of are CoD, Fortnite, LoL and Minecraft. The online-first DRM I am thinking of is Steam.
        jayd16 1y ago
        Even half of your list is not "online only."
- bandrami 1y ago
  Umm... I had a PC a decade before the web was invented, and I didn't even use the web for like another 5 years after it went public ("it's an interesting bit of tech but it will obviously never replace gopher...") The killer apps in the 80s were spreadsheets and desktop publishing.

eru 1y ago

> I don't know, I think you're conflating content streaming with central compute. Would you classify eg gmail as 'content streaming'?

mikepurvis 1y ago
But gmail is also a relatively complicated app, much of which runs locally on the client device.
- MobiusHorizons 1y ago
  It is true that browsers do much more computation than "dumb" terminals, but there are still non-trivial parallels. Terminals do contain a processor and memory in order to handle settings menus, handle keyboard input and convert incoming sequences into a character array that is then displayed on the screen. A terminal is mostly useless without something attached to the other side, but not _completely_ useless. You can browse the menus, enable local echo, and use device as something like a scratchpad. I once drew up a schematic as ascii art this way. The contents are ephemeral and you have to take a photo of the screen or something in order to retain the data. Web browsers aren't quite that useless with no internet connection, some sites do offer offline capabilities (for example gmail). but even then, the vast majority of offline experiences exist to tide the user over until network can be re-established, instead of truly offering something useful to do locally. Probably the only mainstream counter-examples would be games.
- WalterSear 1y ago
  It's still a SAAS, with components that couldn't be replicated client-side, such as AI.
  - galaxyLogic 1y ago
    Right. But does it matter whether computation happens on the client or server? Probabaly on both in the end. But yes I am looking forward to having my own LMS on my PC which only I have access to.
  - 1y ago