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They are not allowed, but still commonly owned and used. The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bik

by SR2Z 1y ago

They are not allowed, but still commonly owned and used. The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. They can't be treated like bicycles because they're too fast but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. We need a new category for light motorcycles. The real problem, IMO, is that the law is generally not deferential enough to cyclists and already forces them off sidewalks, onto the street, and to follow traffic laws designed for cars. There's not much else to take away, and the rules right now are unreasonable enough that cyclists always break them. I think what I would like to see are explicit requirements for insurance and licensing for powerful e-bikes, but made significantly cheaper so that people will actually bother. Requiring helmets for the insurance would also make it much more straightforward. We can require them to take the street or a dedicated bike lane and fully mandate that they have to be walked on sidewalks.

bootlooped 1y ago
> The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. I'm not so sure about that. I don't want a 6000kw Sur Ron riding in the bike lane with me. The whole point of the bike lane was to make a safe space for riding a bicycle. I want the bike lanes to be safe enough for children to ride their bikes in, and having something that powerful in it is not conducive to that goal. They are by and large too fast and too unlike a bicycle for bike lanes. Having things that powerful there is going to dissuade a lot of potential (non electric) cyclists. My girlfriend already gets too freaked out by how fast some of the legal e-bikes in the bike lane go. Certainly they shouldn't be on the sidewalk. But what does that leave? Just the road. If that's the case they probably need to just adhere to whatever standards the state has for scooters or mopeds. Which probably means some kind of license, maybe registration, and possibly insurance. But that type of e-bike manufacturer doesn't want to make a light electric scooter that's road legal, they want to make a thing that skirts regulations by being "for off road use only". And the buyers by and large don't want to deal with license and registration, and certainly not insurance. Just because people are doing an illegal thing a lot doesn't mean that the law needs to find a way to make it legal.
- icedrift 1y ago
  I think what they mean is these e-bikes pushing 60mph should be legal but reclassified as something closer to a motorcycle. The problem with keeping them illegal is people tend to treat them like bikes when they should be on the road.
  - rounce 1y ago
    This is already handled in the licensing in the UK and Europe it’s an A1 motorcycle license if it’s below 11kW, A2 up to 35kW, and everything over is the full-fat A license.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  The law either needs to make it legal or properly be applied to everyone. The worst situation is when an unenforceable law which does not have the teeth for a situation is on the books - it's the same as it being unregulated, but now the government can fine you whenever it wants.
ghostpepper 1y ago
> They can't be treated like bicycles because they're too fast but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. Why would an extremely powerful ebike be any less dangerous than extremely powerful gas motorcycle?
- SR2Z 1y ago
  It will weigh like 3x less.
oblio 1y ago
Any ebike that goes faster than 25kmph in Europe and whatever it is in NA should not be allowed anywhere were pedestrians can go. The real solution people don't want to accept is that ALL non arterial roads in ANY urban/suburban/rural environment should be limited to 30kpmh (and equivalent in NA). And by limited I mean traffic calmed: 1 lane per direction, narrow lanes, raised street crossing, raised intersections, European style roundabouts, the works (Dutch style) - so that people actually respect the speed limit because they don't want to bang their car. Once that happens, bike stay in bike lanes (or multi use paths with pedestrians) and everything else can go on the regular non arterial roads and stuff that's registered (mopeds and up) and go on any road. But my "solution" requires major political adoption and probably decades of sustained vision in investment. In places with good governance it will happen naturally and everywhere else will slowly be left behind.
- ashirviskas 1y ago
  > Any bike that goes faster than 25kmph in Europe and whatever it is in NA should not be allowed anywhere were pedestrians can go. So, literally any bicycle?
  - oblio 1y ago
    Fixed.
  - jlarocco 1y ago
    As a cyclist, motorcyclist, and potential e-bike owner, I'd actually be in favor of making it any bicycle. Anybody moving significantly faster than the flow of traffic is endangering the rest of the users.
    - oblio 1y ago
      I meant fast ebike. Bikes should be allowed on shared use pathways and all sidewalks larger than 2m should by default also allow bikes. Mopeds should be banned and fines should be big, to discourage that kind of use.
- 1y ago
consp 1y ago
> There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. They are called motorcycles. At > 4kw they are that (here). So either you get them registered a such, get a license and insure them, or downgrade them to under 4kw, get a license and insure them as a moped, or downgrade them to 2kw and pedal assist only and register them as a pedelec. All other options is 250w continuous (you can get away with about 500w peak) and pedal assist only. You are also not insured if you drive an illegal bike on the road.
jacquesm 1y ago
> aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. Opinions differ. I have seen far more accidents with powerful e-bikes than I have seen with motorcycles, and yet there are many more motorcycles.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  This likely depends on where you live. Where I am (SF) ebikes do definitely outnumber motorcycles.
ericd 1y ago
>They can't be treated like bicycles because they're too fast but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. As a former rider, why? Cars were the most dangerous part, in my experience. Something that stuck with me from my motorcycle safety course, the speed at which hitting a wall is 50% fatal is 30 mph. Doesn't take highway speeds.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  The goal is not to protect the people on motorcycles, who (if we're being brutally honest) forfeited most expectations of safety as soon as they got on their bikes. The goal is to protect the regular cyclists and pedestrians who they currently share paths with while trying to not make them TOO unsafe.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
jlarocco 1y ago
> but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. What a ridiculous statement. I don't think there's any inherrent difference, but until the laws catch up the "powerful e-bikes" are clearly more dangerous. Riding a traditional motorcycle requires a license, passing a driving test, and following the rules of the road - none of which are true for e-bikes. But I'd love to hear why you think the opposite.
- lelandbatey 1y ago
  An ebike weighs less than a motorcycle by at least half (for super lightweight motorcycles) or less than 1/6th the weight. So a fast ebike is about as dangerous as merely the human person +100lbs traveling at speed. Thus, less energy to transmit to a pedestrian
  - jlarocco 1y ago
    100 pounds of bike plus 150 pounds of person hitting a pedestrian at 30+ mph is still going to do cause serious injuries to both of them. But it's really a moot point because there are essentially zero motorocycles travelling on sidewalks, bikepaths, and trails where pedestrians are going to be concentrated, while it's a free for all for e-bikes. In general, motorcycle/pedestrian accidents are pretty rare. Statistically, motorcyclists are most likely to injure or kill themselves rather than bystanders.
    - SR2Z 1y ago
      Yeah, it's not going to be as bad as a 300lb bike and 150lb person with a fuel tank in the back... There are lots of gas powered motorcycles in the bike lanes where I live. Not legal, but nobody enforces it.
  - earleybird 1y ago
    And still fatal https://www.ctvnews.ca/vancouver/article/pedestrian-dead-after-crash-with-bike-on-vancouver-island/ https://www.ctvnews.ca/vancouver/article/pedestrian-dead-aft... In this case it was a bicycle and not an ebike. That said, anecdotally, many ebikes I see regularly travel faster than the people powered versions
Empact 1y ago
In many states there’s a carve out for mopeds, for example which have less than 50 ccs of displacement. In Texas you can ride them with just a regular drivers license, but ccs have no meaning in the electric world. Should be straightforward to make the case for equivalent regulation, but would require a new advocacy campaign/org.
Aurornis 1y ago
> The real problem, IMO, is that the law is generally not deferential enough to cyclists and already forces them off sidewalks, onto the street, and to follow traffic laws designed for cars. If we’re talking about high powered e-bikes, I don’t want them on the sidewalk either. Once they exceed the current regulations they’re in the moped/motorcycle category. > There's not much else to take away, and the rules right now are unreasonable enough that cyclists always break them. So what’s your suggestion? Let people ride electric motorcycles on sidewalks? Change the laws so that high powered e-bikes don’t have to follow the rules of the road? I don’t think the current laws are unreasonable. I live in a place where people routinely ride their e-bikes on the sidewalks and it’s absolutely awful, especially with young children. Every time we go somewhere I have to hold their hands and yank them off the sidewalk at least once to dodge another e-bike zooming past. I can only hope enforcement catches up and starts impounding bikes from people breaking the law and issuing large fines, because I don’t know how else to stop this.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  No, electric motorcycles should not be on sidewalks - but regular bikes can be.

by SR2Z 1y ago

bootlooped 1y ago

> The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. I'm not so sure about that. I don't want a 6000kw Sur Ron riding in the bike lane with me. The whole point of the bike lane was to make a safe space for riding a bicycle. I want the bike lanes to be safe enough for children to ride their bikes in, and having something that powerful in it is not conducive to that goal. They are by and large too fast and too unlike a bicycle for bike lanes. Having things that powerful there is going to dissuade a lot of potential (non electric) cyclists. My girlfriend already gets too freaked out by how fast some of the legal e-bikes in the bike lane go. Certainly they shouldn't be on the sidewalk. But what does that leave? Just the road. If that's the case they probably need to just adhere to whatever standards the state has for scooters or mopeds. Which probably means some kind of license, maybe registration, and possibly insurance. But that type of e-bike manufacturer doesn't want to make a light electric scooter that's road legal, they want to make a thing that skirts regulations by being "for off road use only". And the buyers by and large don't want to deal with license and registration, and certainly not insurance. Just because people are doing an illegal thing a lot doesn't mean that the law needs to find a way to make it legal.

icedrift 1y ago
I think what they mean is these e-bikes pushing 60mph should be legal but reclassified as something closer to a motorcycle. The problem with keeping them illegal is people tend to treat them like bikes when they should be on the road.
- rounce 1y ago
  This is already handled in the licensing in the UK and Europe it’s an A1 motorcycle license if it’s below 11kW, A2 up to 35kW, and everything over is the full-fat A license.
SR2Z 1y ago
The law either needs to make it legal or properly be applied to everyone. The worst situation is when an unenforceable law which does not have the teeth for a situation is on the books - it's the same as it being unregulated, but now the government can fine you whenever it wants.

ghostpepper 1y ago

> They can't be treated like bicycles because they're too fast but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. Why would an extremely powerful ebike be any less dangerous than extremely powerful gas motorcycle?

SR2Z 1y ago
It will weigh like 3x less.

oblio 1y ago

Any ebike that goes faster than 25kmph in Europe and whatever it is in NA should not be allowed anywhere were pedestrians can go. The real solution people don't want to accept is that ALL non arterial roads in ANY urban/suburban/rural environment should be limited to 30kpmh (and equivalent in NA). And by limited I mean traffic calmed: 1 lane per direction, narrow lanes, raised street crossing, raised intersections, European style roundabouts, the works (Dutch style) - so that people actually respect the speed limit because they don't want to bang their car. Once that happens, bike stay in bike lanes (or multi use paths with pedestrians) and everything else can go on the regular non arterial roads and stuff that's registered (mopeds and up) and go on any road. But my "solution" requires major political adoption and probably decades of sustained vision in investment. In places with good governance it will happen naturally and everywhere else will slowly be left behind.

ashirviskas 1y ago
> Any bike that goes faster than 25kmph in Europe and whatever it is in NA should not be allowed anywhere were pedestrians can go. So, literally any bicycle?
- oblio 1y ago
  Fixed.
- jlarocco 1y ago
  As a cyclist, motorcyclist, and potential e-bike owner, I'd actually be in favor of making it any bicycle. Anybody moving significantly faster than the flow of traffic is endangering the rest of the users.
  - oblio 1y ago
    I meant fast ebike. Bikes should be allowed on shared use pathways and all sidewalks larger than 2m should by default also allow bikes. Mopeds should be banned and fines should be big, to discourage that kind of use.
1y ago

consp 1y ago

> There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. They are called motorcycles. At > 4kw they are that (here). So either you get them registered a such, get a license and insure them, or downgrade them to under 4kw, get a license and insure them as a moped, or downgrade them to 2kw and pedal assist only and register them as a pedelec. All other options is 250w continuous (you can get away with about 500w peak) and pedal assist only. You are also not insured if you drive an illegal bike on the road.

jacquesm 1y ago

> aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. Opinions differ. I have seen far more accidents with powerful e-bikes than I have seen with motorcycles, and yet there are many more motorcycles.

SR2Z 1y ago
This likely depends on where you live. Where I am (SF) ebikes do definitely outnumber motorcycles.

ericd 1y ago

>They can't be treated like bicycles because they're too fast but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. As a former rider, why? Cars were the most dangerous part, in my experience. Something that stuck with me from my motorcycle safety course, the speed at which hitting a wall is 50% fatal is 30 mph. Doesn't take highway speeds.

SR2Z 1y ago
The goal is not to protect the people on motorcycles, who (if we're being brutally honest) forfeited most expectations of safety as soon as they got on their bikes. The goal is to protect the regular cyclists and pedestrians who they currently share paths with while trying to not make them TOO unsafe.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

jlarocco 1y ago

> but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. What a ridiculous statement. I don't think there's any inherrent difference, but until the laws catch up the "powerful e-bikes" are clearly more dangerous. Riding a traditional motorcycle requires a license, passing a driving test, and following the rules of the road - none of which are true for e-bikes. But I'd love to hear why you think the opposite.

lelandbatey 1y ago
An ebike weighs less than a motorcycle by at least half (for super lightweight motorcycles) or less than 1/6th the weight. So a fast ebike is about as dangerous as merely the human person +100lbs traveling at speed. Thus, less energy to transmit to a pedestrian
- jlarocco 1y ago
  100 pounds of bike plus 150 pounds of person hitting a pedestrian at 30+ mph is still going to do cause serious injuries to both of them. But it's really a moot point because there are essentially zero motorocycles travelling on sidewalks, bikepaths, and trails where pedestrians are going to be concentrated, while it's a free for all for e-bikes. In general, motorcycle/pedestrian accidents are pretty rare. Statistically, motorcyclists are most likely to injure or kill themselves rather than bystanders.
  - SR2Z 1y ago
    Yeah, it's not going to be as bad as a 300lb bike and 150lb person with a fuel tank in the back... There are lots of gas powered motorcycles in the bike lanes where I live. Not legal, but nobody enforces it.
- earleybird 1y ago
  And still fatal https://www.ctvnews.ca/vancouver/article/pedestrian-dead-after-crash-with-bike-on-vancouver-island/ https://www.ctvnews.ca/vancouver/article/pedestrian-dead-aft... In this case it was a bicycle and not an ebike. That said, anecdotally, many ebikes I see regularly travel faster than the people powered versions

Empact 1y ago

In many states there’s a carve out for mopeds, for example which have less than 50 ccs of displacement. In Texas you can ride them with just a regular drivers license, but ccs have no meaning in the electric world. Should be straightforward to make the case for equivalent regulation, but would require a new advocacy campaign/org.

Aurornis 1y ago

> The real problem, IMO, is that the law is generally not deferential enough to cyclists and already forces them off sidewalks, onto the street, and to follow traffic laws designed for cars. If we’re talking about high powered e-bikes, I don’t want them on the sidewalk either. Once they exceed the current regulations they’re in the moped/motorcycle category. > There's not much else to take away, and the rules right now are unreasonable enough that cyclists always break them. So what’s your suggestion? Let people ride electric motorcycles on sidewalks? Change the laws so that high powered e-bikes don’t have to follow the rules of the road? I don’t think the current laws are unreasonable. I live in a place where people routinely ride their e-bikes on the sidewalks and it’s absolutely awful, especially with young children. Every time we go somewhere I have to hold their hands and yank them off the sidewalk at least once to dodge another e-bike zooming past. I can only hope enforcement catches up and starts impounding bikes from people breaking the law and issuing large fines, because I don’t know how else to stop this.

SR2Z 1y ago
No, electric motorcycles should not be on sidewalks - but regular bikes can be.