6 ms·

You can't have a sustainable ecology when China sends a city of trawlers to devastate fish stocks around the world and then sends it all back to China. It leave

by reenorap 11mo ago

You can't have a sustainable ecology when China sends a city of trawlers to devastate fish stocks around the world and then sends it all back to China. It leaves the countries that were depending on that fish suffering with no repercussions for China. As far as I'm concerned, those cities of fishing boats should be sunk because it's an act of war by China.

lisbbb 11mo ago
[flagged]
- MaoTinyDong 11mo ago
  [flagged]
- PaulHoule 11mo ago
  It is all a collective action problem. The gains you get now by fishing more are real, the loss you get from overshooting the limits is hypothetical and ind the future and the present always wins. Fisheries off the coast of New England have consistently gone through the cycle of fisherman arguing with ecologists, being right in the good years, having a bad year, having a fishery collapse, a few years of recessions and then finding some other population of fish which is less desirable, further away, more expensive, etc.
  - ungreased0675 11mo ago
    What you’re describing is different from what the Chinese distant water fishing fleet is doing. They’re essentially strip mining the ocean thousands of miles away from China, leaving the locals to deal with the ecological damage and resulting consequences.
    - PaulHoule 11mo ago
      Different and the same. What's the same is that it is a shared resource that people benefit privately from and there is no authority that can manage it globally. Like I say, those fish the Chinese caught are real, people are not sure what the long term consequences are.
  - observationist 11mo ago
    Sink boats until the behavior changes. Behavior won't change until a sufficient number of boats sink. Decades of talking and explaining and diplomacy and politics have failed. The only two options remaining are accepting the status quo or sinking boats. Anything else is performative.
    - helicone 11mo ago
      does a fishing boat make enough money to justify a naval escort? would the chinese front the money for a while just to discourage the behavior? how likely is this to lead to war? can we sink them in a plausibly deniable way?
      - PaulHoule 11mo ago
        Chinese fishing boats in the South China Sea are known for being lightly armed, boarding other ships, generally having a ‘securitt’ function.
      - observationist 11mo ago
        I dunno, drones and missiles are probably the most cost effective way. I was in favor of diplomacy 10 and 20 and 30 years ago, but I'm completely and totally done pretending diplomacy and education and hearts and minds type campaigns have any value, anymore. I also think it's worth going to war over. The threat of killing the oceans is a pretty drastic and permanent threat to the entire world, and it can cascade into apocalyptic conditions. Having a coherent frame of rules that allow conservation actually increases the fish yield, but China's treating it like a zero sum game. It's gotta be stopped, since they're entirely and brazenly unwilling to stop. The same drones used against the venezuelan drug boats could be targeted at the exploitative fishing boats, and a consistent year or two could force international agreements and some sort of collaborative enforcement. Drone platforms and satellite monitoring could even make it mostly autonomous.
        kelipso 11mo ago
        This is so delusional and siloed from current geopolitical realities. This will lead to war and/or sanctions by China on multiple exports and imports with the offending countries.
  - BurningFrog 11mo ago
    More specifically, I'd call it a "tragedy of the commons" problem. The simplest solution is to make the fishing rights for the waters a property that can be bought and sold. If you overfish in that system, you get no income in the future years, so greed will make you manage the fish responsibly. This is probably very hard to do within the current international law framework.
    - helicone 11mo ago
      fish migrate
    - crazygringo 11mo ago
      That doesn't work when fish swim between properties.
      - elboru 11mo ago
        Build a wall?
        BrenBarn 11mo ago
        And make the fish pay for it?
      - BurningFrog 11mo ago
        Make them big enough and it works well enough. This works reasonably well in territorial waters.
    - justincormack 11mo ago
      I seem to remember some calculations that the present value was higher if you overfished once. If interest rates are high anyway.
    - LorenPechtel 11mo ago
      Yeah, the only real solution is to eliminate commons. In case of the ocean I would say that every country should have the economic right to all points in the ocean closer to them than to any other country. Everyone else gets free passage (subject to your reasonable environmental laws) and to engage in scientific operations, but only the country has any right to remove anything beyond scientific samples. It's not perfect given that some species move about, but it would go a long ways towards controlling the problem.
maxglute 11mo ago
PRC fishing mostly on international waters is an act of war now? NVM PRC DWF about as well behaved as other distant fishing fleet in terms of clipping EEZs and they're still underfishing per capita relative other large fishing powers, i.e. they're taking less from commons then entitled. Countries dependent are migratory transnational resource extraction are frankly living on a retarded business model and have only themselves to blame. Reminder 80% of PRC fish comes from sustainable aquaculture that control in their soveign waters. That's your sustainable ecology model, but it requires capex / infra to manage husbandry instead relying on gaia like some hunter gather.
- baxuz 11mo ago
  That's absolute bs. There's documented videos of basically armadas fishing up to the very edge of Argentina's territorial waters.
  - maxglute 11mo ago
    >very edge of Argentina's territorial waters The edge of EEZs, aka the high seas, aka fucking international waters. There's lots of documentation of PRC DWF legally fishing where they're entitled that useful idiots think is illegal activity because US was pumping propaganda bux and generating false narratives / wedge issues countries PRC was cozying up with and rationalize deploying their coast guards to undermine PRC interests. There's occasionally misbehavior, i.e. AIS shenanigans for incursions from minority of vessels, but PRC bheavior proportionally is slightly BETTER than other DWFs, i.e. SKR, TW, ES. TLDR if an a countries entire extract model falls because some foreign vessels pops a few nautical miles into 200 mile long EEZ, i.e. a few % of occasional incursion, then their national fishing managment models are not sustainable. BTW, there's a reason only few ships are ever interdicted, because in aggregate, PRC DWF is just not a fucking issue. There were actual attemps where US coast guards tried to board PRC DWF fleets on high seas, again, international waters, and was lolled off. So the answer to all those asking why DWF fleets aren't sunk (I assume in good faith they mean all DWF and not just PRC's), the answer is simple: most operate legally, in international waters, pillaging the commons unsustainably as they are entitled to.

lisbbb 11mo ago

[flagged]

MaoTinyDong 11mo ago
[flagged]
PaulHoule 11mo ago
It is all a collective action problem. The gains you get now by fishing more are real, the loss you get from overshooting the limits is hypothetical and ind the future and the present always wins. Fisheries off the coast of New England have consistently gone through the cycle of fisherman arguing with ecologists, being right in the good years, having a bad year, having a fishery collapse, a few years of recessions and then finding some other population of fish which is less desirable, further away, more expensive, etc.
- ungreased0675 11mo ago
  What you’re describing is different from what the Chinese distant water fishing fleet is doing. They’re essentially strip mining the ocean thousands of miles away from China, leaving the locals to deal with the ecological damage and resulting consequences.
  - PaulHoule 11mo ago
    Different and the same. What's the same is that it is a shared resource that people benefit privately from and there is no authority that can manage it globally. Like I say, those fish the Chinese caught are real, people are not sure what the long term consequences are.
- observationist 11mo ago
  Sink boats until the behavior changes. Behavior won't change until a sufficient number of boats sink. Decades of talking and explaining and diplomacy and politics have failed. The only two options remaining are accepting the status quo or sinking boats. Anything else is performative.
  - helicone 11mo ago
    does a fishing boat make enough money to justify a naval escort? would the chinese front the money for a while just to discourage the behavior? how likely is this to lead to war? can we sink them in a plausibly deniable way?
    - PaulHoule 11mo ago
      Chinese fishing boats in the South China Sea are known for being lightly armed, boarding other ships, generally having a ‘securitt’ function.
    - observationist 11mo ago
      I dunno, drones and missiles are probably the most cost effective way. I was in favor of diplomacy 10 and 20 and 30 years ago, but I'm completely and totally done pretending diplomacy and education and hearts and minds type campaigns have any value, anymore. I also think it's worth going to war over. The threat of killing the oceans is a pretty drastic and permanent threat to the entire world, and it can cascade into apocalyptic conditions. Having a coherent frame of rules that allow conservation actually increases the fish yield, but China's treating it like a zero sum game. It's gotta be stopped, since they're entirely and brazenly unwilling to stop. The same drones used against the venezuelan drug boats could be targeted at the exploitative fishing boats, and a consistent year or two could force international agreements and some sort of collaborative enforcement. Drone platforms and satellite monitoring could even make it mostly autonomous.
      - kelipso 11mo ago
        This is so delusional and siloed from current geopolitical realities. This will lead to war and/or sanctions by China on multiple exports and imports with the offending countries.
- BurningFrog 11mo ago
  More specifically, I'd call it a "tragedy of the commons" problem. The simplest solution is to make the fishing rights for the waters a property that can be bought and sold. If you overfish in that system, you get no income in the future years, so greed will make you manage the fish responsibly. This is probably very hard to do within the current international law framework.
  - helicone 11mo ago
    fish migrate
  - crazygringo 11mo ago
    That doesn't work when fish swim between properties.
    - elboru 11mo ago
      Build a wall?
      - BrenBarn 11mo ago
        And make the fish pay for it?
    - BurningFrog 11mo ago
      Make them big enough and it works well enough. This works reasonably well in territorial waters.
  - justincormack 11mo ago
    I seem to remember some calculations that the present value was higher if you overfished once. If interest rates are high anyway.
  - LorenPechtel 11mo ago
    Yeah, the only real solution is to eliminate commons. In case of the ocean I would say that every country should have the economic right to all points in the ocean closer to them than to any other country. Everyone else gets free passage (subject to your reasonable environmental laws) and to engage in scientific operations, but only the country has any right to remove anything beyond scientific samples. It's not perfect given that some species move about, but it would go a long ways towards controlling the problem.

maxglute 11mo ago

PRC fishing mostly on international waters is an act of war now? NVM PRC DWF about as well behaved as other distant fishing fleet in terms of clipping EEZs and they're still underfishing per capita relative other large fishing powers, i.e. they're taking less from commons then entitled. Countries dependent are migratory transnational resource extraction are frankly living on a retarded business model and have only themselves to blame. Reminder 80% of PRC fish comes from sustainable aquaculture that control in their soveign waters. That's your sustainable ecology model, but it requires capex / infra to manage husbandry instead relying on gaia like some hunter gather.

baxuz 11mo ago
That's absolute bs. There's documented videos of basically armadas fishing up to the very edge of Argentina's territorial waters.
- maxglute 11mo ago
  >very edge of Argentina's territorial waters The edge of EEZs, aka the high seas, aka fucking international waters. There's lots of documentation of PRC DWF legally fishing where they're entitled that useful idiots think is illegal activity because US was pumping propaganda bux and generating false narratives / wedge issues countries PRC was cozying up with and rationalize deploying their coast guards to undermine PRC interests. There's occasionally misbehavior, i.e. AIS shenanigans for incursions from minority of vessels, but PRC bheavior proportionally is slightly BETTER than other DWFs, i.e. SKR, TW, ES. TLDR if an a countries entire extract model falls because some foreign vessels pops a few nautical miles into 200 mile long EEZ, i.e. a few % of occasional incursion, then their national fishing managment models are not sustainable. BTW, there's a reason only few ships are ever interdicted, because in aggregate, PRC DWF is just not a fucking issue. There were actual attemps where US coast guards tried to board PRC DWF fleets on high seas, again, international waters, and was lolled off. So the answer to all those asking why DWF fleets aren't sunk (I assume in good faith they mean all DWF and not just PRC's), the answer is simple: most operate legally, in international waters, pillaging the commons unsustainably as they are entitled to.