4 ms·

> When using a pen you become a poet ? No. By definition, a poet writes poems. Not all pen use leads to poems. By definition, engineers build systems. What el

by 9rx 1y ago

> When using a pen you become a poet ? No. By definition, a poet writes poems. Not all pen use leads to poems. By definition, engineers build systems. What else can you do with code (and LLMs; same thing) other than build systems?

QuercusMax 1y ago
You can make a lot of slop of all different sorts with LLMs. That has very little in common with building systems.
- 9rx 1y ago
  "Slop" suggests that the only difference is in quality, but the definition of engineer says nothing of quality. Perhaps you might consider using an LLM to build a system that creates a response that is more coherent?
  - QuercusMax 1y ago
    Slop doesn't suggest the difference is only in quality, but also in form. Words have meanings, ya know? I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. Just like I can eat Chicken McNuggets all day long, but that doesn't mean I'm eating a roast chicken.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      > I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. I don't follow. An LLM doesn't magically output code-like text, or anything else for that matter, on a whim. You have to build a system that describes your intent to the machine. Only then might it output code-like text, if that's what your system describes. It's not the execution of your code that makes you an engineer. It's building a system that can be executed in the first place that makes you a (software) engineer.
      - QuercusMax 1y ago
        You said a few comments upthread (and I quote): "What else can you do with code (and LLMs; same thing) other than build systems?" There are many things you can do with LLMs other than build systems. That's my point. Using an LLM doesn't make you an engineer; that's preposterous.
        9rx 1y ago
        > There are many things you can do with LLMs other than build systems. Like what? The code-like output example clearly requires you to build a system before the LLM can evaluate your program. If I want an LLM to generate a bedtime story, I also need to build a system that defines that. Where do you find the escape? Maybe you're thinking of AGI? While everyone has their own pet AGI definition, many see it as being the point where you no longer have to build the system and the machine can start to take on that role. But we don't have that yet, and isn't what we're talking about anyway.
  - lm28469 1y ago
    > the definition of engineer says nothing of quality The definition you used makes someone who maintain a twitter account or use a coffee machine an "engineer"... everyone is an engineer by that definition really
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - 9rx 1y ago
      It's not just the definition I use, it is the most common definition people use according to the records we keep. And yes, someone who builds a system to generate Twitter content or maintains a coffee machine are definitely engineers. Professional engineering societies don't like that fact and often try to usurp the term for their own financial gain, but that's not how English works. Definitions derive from use, not what a small group of people wish were so, and the record that keeps track of use is abundantly clear how the word is most commonly used.
  - hitarpetar 1y ago
    wow epic comeback man can you share the prompt you used to generate it?
    - 9rx 1y ago
      I'm told you don't need to build a prompt. That would be engineering, which apparently isn't involved in the use of LLMs.
lm28469 1y ago
idk man, plenty of people have "ai" gf/bf/therapist, ask "ai" for vacation trip ideas, recipes, gym workouts, &c. I wouldn't even be surprised if most tokens were used on non software engineering tasks. I have a zombie developer, coder, idk how to call them, in my team who doesn't talk to anyone, writes shit tier PRs and spends all day long talking to chatgpt. They're a prompter, a chatter, a waste of money, but certainly not an engineer
- 9rx 1y ago
  > idk man, plenty of people have "ai" gf/bf/therapist, ask "ai" for vacation trip ideas, recipes, gym workouts, &c. Not without engineering a system to get the AI to generate a response they don't. > non software engineering tasks. There is no non-software engineering task when using an LLM. All LLM use first requires designing software to get the LLM to do anything. An LLM will not autonomously act on its own. It can only respond in accordance to the the program you have designed for it. That program can be written in natural language, granted, but software programs are not limited by the particular language they are written in. Its not somehow not a program just because you didn't write machine code on punch cards.
guywithahat 1y ago
In mechanical engineering you can be an engineer or a mechanic, or other things (like a hobbies or different degrees of casual work), and they're no interchangeable. I think being an engineer implies it's a profession you've trained in and you're implementing the science behind it in a practical manor in some capacity (like a computer scientist studies computers, a computer engineer implements and builds the systems based upon this science).
- 9rx 1y ago
  > In mechanical engineering you can be an engineer or a mechanic, or other things Sure. While some mechanics may sometimes find themselves having to design things to carry out their work (in which case they would be engineers during that time), generally speaking mechanics carry out the physical replacement of what engineers have already designed. They are not designing things themselves. But there is no mechanic analog in computing. At least there isn't a human mechanic analog. One is always operating at the design level, regardless of whether the design is written in C, Rust, or natural language. All the engineering-adjacent work you find in other engineering disciplines is done by the computer in the software realm. > I think being an engineer implies it's a profession you've trained in and you're implementing the science behind it in a practical manor in some capacity That's what "professional engineer" implies, but we're talking about "engineer". There is no such connotations in the word engineer alone, hence the existence of the PE term.
  - guywithahat 1y ago
    I would say attaching things together with or from an LLM would be the analogy. Being a mechanic and being an engineer are both technical jobs which require skill, but one is design focused while the other is system focused. I would also disagree that "professional engineer" is a meaningful distinction from engineer. I don't really think of an engineer as being something you can do casually, it's a profession. Also re-reading my comment I should have said adjacent to mechanical engineering, generally you don't get a degree in mechanical engineering to become a mechanic.
    - 1y ago

by 9rx 1y ago

QuercusMax 1y ago

You can make a lot of slop of all different sorts with LLMs. That has very little in common with building systems.

9rx 1y ago
"Slop" suggests that the only difference is in quality, but the definition of engineer says nothing of quality. Perhaps you might consider using an LLM to build a system that creates a response that is more coherent?
- QuercusMax 1y ago
  Slop doesn't suggest the difference is only in quality, but also in form. Words have meanings, ya know? I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. Just like I can eat Chicken McNuggets all day long, but that doesn't mean I'm eating a roast chicken.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. I don't follow. An LLM doesn't magically output code-like text, or anything else for that matter, on a whim. You have to build a system that describes your intent to the machine. Only then might it output code-like text, if that's what your system describes. It's not the execution of your code that makes you an engineer. It's building a system that can be executed in the first place that makes you a (software) engineer.
    - QuercusMax 1y ago
      You said a few comments upthread (and I quote): "What else can you do with code (and LLMs; same thing) other than build systems?" There are many things you can do with LLMs other than build systems. That's my point. Using an LLM doesn't make you an engineer; that's preposterous.
      - 9rx 1y ago
        > There are many things you can do with LLMs other than build systems. Like what? The code-like output example clearly requires you to build a system before the LLM can evaluate your program. If I want an LLM to generate a bedtime story, I also need to build a system that defines that. Where do you find the escape? Maybe you're thinking of AGI? While everyone has their own pet AGI definition, many see it as being the point where you no longer have to build the system and the machine can start to take on that role. But we don't have that yet, and isn't what we're talking about anyway.
- lm28469 1y ago
  > the definition of engineer says nothing of quality The definition you used makes someone who maintain a twitter account or use a coffee machine an "engineer"... everyone is an engineer by that definition really
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - 9rx 1y ago
    It's not just the definition I use, it is the most common definition people use according to the records we keep. And yes, someone who builds a system to generate Twitter content or maintains a coffee machine are definitely engineers. Professional engineering societies don't like that fact and often try to usurp the term for their own financial gain, but that's not how English works. Definitions derive from use, not what a small group of people wish were so, and the record that keeps track of use is abundantly clear how the word is most commonly used.
- hitarpetar 1y ago
  wow epic comeback man can you share the prompt you used to generate it?
  - 9rx 1y ago
    I'm told you don't need to build a prompt. That would be engineering, which apparently isn't involved in the use of LLMs.

lm28469 1y ago

idk man, plenty of people have "ai" gf/bf/therapist, ask "ai" for vacation trip ideas, recipes, gym workouts, &c. I wouldn't even be surprised if most tokens were used on non software engineering tasks. I have a zombie developer, coder, idk how to call them, in my team who doesn't talk to anyone, writes shit tier PRs and spends all day long talking to chatgpt. They're a prompter, a chatter, a waste of money, but certainly not an engineer

9rx 1y ago
> idk man, plenty of people have "ai" gf/bf/therapist, ask "ai" for vacation trip ideas, recipes, gym workouts, &c. Not without engineering a system to get the AI to generate a response they don't. > non software engineering tasks. There is no non-software engineering task when using an LLM. All LLM use first requires designing software to get the LLM to do anything. An LLM will not autonomously act on its own. It can only respond in accordance to the the program you have designed for it. That program can be written in natural language, granted, but software programs are not limited by the particular language they are written in. Its not somehow not a program just because you didn't write machine code on punch cards.

guywithahat 1y ago

In mechanical engineering you can be an engineer or a mechanic, or other things (like a hobbies or different degrees of casual work), and they're no interchangeable. I think being an engineer implies it's a profession you've trained in and you're implementing the science behind it in a practical manor in some capacity (like a computer scientist studies computers, a computer engineer implements and builds the systems based upon this science).

9rx 1y ago
> In mechanical engineering you can be an engineer or a mechanic, or other things Sure. While some mechanics may sometimes find themselves having to design things to carry out their work (in which case they would be engineers during that time), generally speaking mechanics carry out the physical replacement of what engineers have already designed. They are not designing things themselves. But there is no mechanic analog in computing. At least there isn't a human mechanic analog. One is always operating at the design level, regardless of whether the design is written in C, Rust, or natural language. All the engineering-adjacent work you find in other engineering disciplines is done by the computer in the software realm. > I think being an engineer implies it's a profession you've trained in and you're implementing the science behind it in a practical manor in some capacity That's what "professional engineer" implies, but we're talking about "engineer". There is no such connotations in the word engineer alone, hence the existence of the PE term.
- guywithahat 1y ago
  I would say attaching things together with or from an LLM would be the analogy. Being a mechanic and being an engineer are both technical jobs which require skill, but one is design focused while the other is system focused. I would also disagree that "professional engineer" is a meaningful distinction from engineer. I don't really think of an engineer as being something you can do casually, it's a profession. Also re-reading my comment I should have said adjacent to mechanical engineering, generally you don't get a degree in mechanical engineering to become a mechanic.
  - 1y ago