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At the end of the day, "AI" is just another programming language, albeit one that is much more accessible to the layman. When using AI, you become a software en

by 9rx 1y ago

At the end of the day, "AI" is just another programming language, albeit one that is much more accessible to the layman. When using AI, you become a software engineer. So it stands to reason that software engineering jobs are strong. But what about pay? Elevator operator jobs have never been more prevalent, but increased accessibility to the layman pushed the price to zero.

dylan604 1y ago
> When using AI, you become a software engineer. No. You do not. It may make you a developer, at best. I don't even call my self a software engineer, because I'm not. I'm a self taught coder that has spent 25+ years gaining experience, but I've never graduated from a school with any kind on engineering degree. I started CSE way back in the 90s, but stopped because life got in the way. Maybe you're joking, but you just know people actually feel this way. They have no idea the difference of a coder and an SWE, and flippant comments don't help
- 9rx 1y ago
  > but I've never graduated from a school with any kind on engineering degree. So? Per the dictionary, engineer is clearly defined as: A person who designs, builds, or maintains machines, structures, or systems. There is no mention of school or having an engineering degree. It has always been a bit debatable if software fits into machine, structure, or system, granted, but we generally have come to agree that it does. And per the context of discussion, we've already established that it does for the sake of discussion. On that understanding, designing/building/maintaining a system in "LLM code" instead of C++ code is fundamentally no different. You're likely confusing engineer with Professional Engineer™, but that's something else entirely. That obviously has nothing to do with anything that we're talking about here.
eMPee584 1y ago
At the end of this day.. and of the next. But at some point, the tool will "suddenly" turn into a versatile agent, and that time might be a lot sooner than most expect (c.f. "exponential growth surprise factor"...)
lm28469 1y ago
> When using AI, you become a software engineer. When using a pen you become a poet ? lol Most people who code aren't software engineers, you certainly can't extend the definition to every AI users
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- 9rx 1y ago
  > When using a pen you become a poet ? No. By definition, a poet writes poems. Not all pen use leads to poems. By definition, engineers build systems. What else can you do with code (and LLMs; same thing) other than build systems?
  - QuercusMax 1y ago
    You can make a lot of slop of all different sorts with LLMs. That has very little in common with building systems.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      "Slop" suggests that the only difference is in quality, but the definition of engineer says nothing of quality. Perhaps you might consider using an LLM to build a system that creates a response that is more coherent?
      - QuercusMax 1y ago
        Slop doesn't suggest the difference is only in quality, but also in form. Words have meanings, ya know? I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. Just like I can eat Chicken McNuggets all day long, but that doesn't mean I'm eating a roast chicken.
        9rx 1y ago
        > I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. I don't follow. An LLM doesn't magically output code-like text, or anything else for that matter, on a whim. You have to build a system that describes your intent to the machine. Only then might it output code-like text, if that's what your system describes. It's not the execution of your code that makes you an engineer. It's building a system that can be executed in the first place that makes you a (software) engineer.
rvz 1y ago
> When using AI, you become a software engineer. Stopped reading. VR flight simulator software is accessible to the layman. Does that make them qualified to be a captain (pilot-in-command) for a commercial passenger plane?
- cool_man_bob 1y ago
  [dead]
- 9rx 1y ago
  > VR flight simulator software is accessible to the layman. Does that make them qualified to be a captain (pilot-in-command) for a commercial passenger plane? No. They might be able to fly a plane poorly, though. Engineer doesn't imply being qualified, only engaging in the act of designing, building, or maintaining a machine, structure, or system. You don't have to be qualified, or even be good at it, to carry out those acts. You're probably thinking of Professional Engineer™, which does represent recognized qualifications, but that's something completely different. Obviously if Professional Engineer™ was meant, Professional Engineer™ would have been written.
- geodel 1y ago
  Huh, Pilot/ Captain job requirement for commercial plane is highly regulated by authorities like FAA etc but software engineer has no such requirement. Any random business with some basic software requirement can ask an employee or contractor to get something developed quickly and deployed it. They may start calling that person software engineer. Further even if you have some strict ACM/IEEE definition of Software Engineer®, a person is not going to end up in jail if they don't fulfill those but call themselves software engineer nonetheless.
  - rvz 1y ago
    > Huh, Pilot/ Captain job requirement for commercial plane is highly regulated by authorities like FAA etc but software engineer has no such requirement. ny random business with some basic software requirement can ask an employee or contractor to get something developed quickly and deployed it. They may start calling that person software engineer. Exactly the problem. Secondly, if I am building commercial plane software for pilots to use, you wouldn't want to hire unqualified / in-experienced 'engineers' for all the critical work and validation testing. (or even AI vibe-coders picked from anywhere.) Because surely, that worked out for Boeing. [0] /s > Further even if you have some strict ACM/IEEE definition of Software Engineer®, a person is not going to end up in jail if they don't fulfill those but call themselves software engineer nonetheless. So we are now defending fraud if one calls themselves an SWE on their CV with zero experience other than an AI doing all the coding? It's like you want to take the legal risk hoping that the employer / company won't sue you for fraud when that vibe-coded software goes all wrong and money is lost. [0] https://www.industryweek.com/supply-chain/article/22027840/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers https://www.industryweek.com/supply-chain/article/22027840/b...

by 9rx 1y ago

dylan604 1y ago

> When using AI, you become a software engineer. No. You do not. It may make you a developer, at best. I don't even call my self a software engineer, because I'm not. I'm a self taught coder that has spent 25+ years gaining experience, but I've never graduated from a school with any kind on engineering degree. I started CSE way back in the 90s, but stopped because life got in the way. Maybe you're joking, but you just know people actually feel this way. They have no idea the difference of a coder and an SWE, and flippant comments don't help

9rx 1y ago
> but I've never graduated from a school with any kind on engineering degree. So? Per the dictionary, engineer is clearly defined as: A person who designs, builds, or maintains machines, structures, or systems. There is no mention of school or having an engineering degree. It has always been a bit debatable if software fits into machine, structure, or system, granted, but we generally have come to agree that it does. And per the context of discussion, we've already established that it does for the sake of discussion. On that understanding, designing/building/maintaining a system in "LLM code" instead of C++ code is fundamentally no different. You're likely confusing engineer with Professional Engineer™, but that's something else entirely. That obviously has nothing to do with anything that we're talking about here.

eMPee584 1y ago

At the end of this day.. and of the next. But at some point, the tool will "suddenly" turn into a versatile agent, and that time might be a lot sooner than most expect (c.f. "exponential growth surprise factor"...)

lm28469 1y ago

> When using AI, you become a software engineer. When using a pen you become a poet ? lol Most people who code aren't software engineers, you certainly can't extend the definition to every AI users

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
9rx 1y ago
> When using a pen you become a poet ? No. By definition, a poet writes poems. Not all pen use leads to poems. By definition, engineers build systems. What else can you do with code (and LLMs; same thing) other than build systems?
- QuercusMax 1y ago
  You can make a lot of slop of all different sorts with LLMs. That has very little in common with building systems.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    "Slop" suggests that the only difference is in quality, but the definition of engineer says nothing of quality. Perhaps you might consider using an LLM to build a system that creates a response that is more coherent?
    - QuercusMax 1y ago
      Slop doesn't suggest the difference is only in quality, but also in form. Words have meanings, ya know? I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. Just like I can eat Chicken McNuggets all day long, but that doesn't mean I'm eating a roast chicken.
      - 9rx 1y ago
        > I can have an LLM generate me code-like text all day long, but that doesn't means it's building a system. I don't follow. An LLM doesn't magically output code-like text, or anything else for that matter, on a whim. You have to build a system that describes your intent to the machine. Only then might it output code-like text, if that's what your system describes. It's not the execution of your code that makes you an engineer. It's building a system that can be executed in the first place that makes you a (software) engineer.

rvz 1y ago

> When using AI, you become a software engineer. Stopped reading. VR flight simulator software is accessible to the layman. Does that make them qualified to be a captain (pilot-in-command) for a commercial passenger plane?

cool_man_bob 1y ago
[dead]
9rx 1y ago
> VR flight simulator software is accessible to the layman. Does that make them qualified to be a captain (pilot-in-command) for a commercial passenger plane? No. They might be able to fly a plane poorly, though. Engineer doesn't imply being qualified, only engaging in the act of designing, building, or maintaining a machine, structure, or system. You don't have to be qualified, or even be good at it, to carry out those acts. You're probably thinking of Professional Engineer™, which does represent recognized qualifications, but that's something completely different. Obviously if Professional Engineer™ was meant, Professional Engineer™ would have been written.
geodel 1y ago
Huh, Pilot/ Captain job requirement for commercial plane is highly regulated by authorities like FAA etc but software engineer has no such requirement. Any random business with some basic software requirement can ask an employee or contractor to get something developed quickly and deployed it. They may start calling that person software engineer. Further even if you have some strict ACM/IEEE definition of Software Engineer®, a person is not going to end up in jail if they don't fulfill those but call themselves software engineer nonetheless.
- rvz 1y ago
  > Huh, Pilot/ Captain job requirement for commercial plane is highly regulated by authorities like FAA etc but software engineer has no such requirement. ny random business with some basic software requirement can ask an employee or contractor to get something developed quickly and deployed it. They may start calling that person software engineer. Exactly the problem. Secondly, if I am building commercial plane software for pilots to use, you wouldn't want to hire unqualified / in-experienced 'engineers' for all the critical work and validation testing. (or even AI vibe-coders picked from anywhere.) Because surely, that worked out for Boeing. [0] /s > Further even if you have some strict ACM/IEEE definition of Software Engineer®, a person is not going to end up in jail if they don't fulfill those but call themselves software engineer nonetheless. So we are now defending fraud if one calls themselves an SWE on their CV with zero experience other than an AI doing all the coding? It's like you want to take the legal risk hoping that the employer / company won't sue you for fraud when that vibe-coded software goes all wrong and money is lost. [0] https://www.industryweek.com/supply-chain/article/22027840/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers https://www.industryweek.com/supply-chain/article/22027840/b...