5 ms·

I used to always think like that and try to come up with these excuses. Until I read the story about how Steve Jobs was mad about the fact that Mac was slow to

by rs186 11mo ago

I used to always think like that and try to come up with these excuses. Until I read the story about how Steve Jobs was mad about the fact that Mac was slow to start and asked teams to fix it. Surprise, they fixed it. And it's not like nobody could say anything at Microsoft. Someone on HN posted this email (originally from a different website): https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-tries-to-install-movie-maker https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-tries-to-install-mov... However, my guess is that this email got nowhere, because the experience of using Windows isn't so different decades later. What this means is that 1) Microsoft is first and foremost a business oriented company, and what matters to them most is feature set, compatibility, support etc. As long as things mostly work, it's fine. Usability is at the bottom of the list. 2) Windows is just not important to Microsoft any more. I bet that Satya Nadella has grumbles about bugs and ads in Windows 11, and likely has run into this specific bug first hand. But when he decides that "ads revenue trumps everything" and "these are just small bugs that don't really matter", he immediately forgets about it all.

transcriptase 11mo ago
I just assume the entire Windows team uses OSX on their own time but have some kind of neural defect that prevents them from taking any lessons from it.
- baq 11mo ago
  OSX is not the paragon of UX, as evidenced by the long list of software I need to install to make it behave in a non-broken fashion. That said, I don’t think I disagree with your diagnosis. I’m just afraid they’re lifting more bad parts than good.
- InitialBP 11mo ago
  New macbooks with a notch hide icons underneath of the notch and those icons are completely inaccessible without installing 3rd party software to manage your status bar, or turning off a bunch of other software with visible icons on your bar. IMO that's a far worse UX than update and shutdown turning the computer back on at the end.
  - mschuster91 11mo ago
    In a pinch you can reduce the spacing between items [1]. The default of macOS is ridiculously large. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spacing-of-menu-bar-apps-be-modified-in-macos-big-sur-and-later/465674#465674 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spa...
  - Groxx 11mo ago
    you can finally set a screen resolution that just stays below the notch! I'm not sure when that became available, but I just used it a couple weeks ago.
    - ValentineC 11mo ago
      The sad thing about the current state of macOS is that I'd rather install an app to manage the menu bar than upgrade to the liquid glass monstrosity that is macOS Tahoe. (I'm also not an early adopter. I only went to Sequoia from Ventura a few months ago.)
      - Groxx 11mo ago
        in case this implies you haven't found it: it's a feature in Sequoia :) it's just in display settings, though you may have to turn on the "show all resolutions" toggle to show it. I haven't used Tahoe personally for more than a moment on someone else's computer, but wow they did not think that UI redesign through at all, did they. I'm actually kinda glad I'm mac-less now.
- handsclean 11mo ago
  Sounds like a hard life. So much time spent on buggy, unintuitive, jumbled, and half-assed OS, then the only time they get away from it, they have to use Windows.
ToucanLoucan 11mo ago
It’s frankly wild how many weird problems and UX pitfalls I experienced with my first PC in roughly 2005 are STILL issues. The fuck is Microsoft having all these engineers work all day on?
- hulitu 11mo ago
  > The fuck is Microsoft having all these engineers work all day on? Rounding corners of UI elements, changing size of UI elements, reshufling UI elements, AI maybe.
  - ToucanLoucan 11mo ago
    And by changing size you do mean ballooning the size of. I've had to run my gaming laptop's screen at 0.75x via the nVidia panel because otherwise my freaking window titlebars take up a solid 8% of the usable space.
wat10000 11mo ago
That Steve Jobs story is from 1983 and the entire Mac team could probably have fit into a reasonably large conference room.
- jack_tripper 11mo ago
  I think he's talking about that story about the MacBook Air Presentation to Steve Jobs where he threw the prototype on the floor when he saw how slow it booted so they decided to switch to SSD only storage to mitigate this. It's however difficult to verify these stories.
  - wat10000 11mo ago
    I hadn't heard that one, and I can't find anything online. Considering that the base model MacBook Air had spinning rust for the first two and a half years, I'm skeptical. The "Saving Lives" story I'm referring to is unverified but it does at least come from directly someone who was there.
piker 11mo ago
"Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up." In 2003 already; Amazing!
pif 11mo ago
> Microsoft is first and foremost a business oriented company, and what matters to them most is feature set, compatibility, support etc. As long as things mostly work, it's fine. Usability is at the bottom of the list. Blame their customers. Those people accepted random reboots for decades.
jwr 11mo ago
> Until I read the story about how Steve Jobs was mad about the fact that Mac was slow to start and asked teams to fix it. Surprise, they fixed it. What was different then was that Steve Jobs actually loved computers and used them. That is not the case for our modern computing behemoths (Microsoft or Apple). Dogfooding is a thing, and having a person in power who can say "no" is important.
1718627440 11mo ago
> I bet that Satya Nadella has grumbles about bugs and ads in Windows 11 Why should he? If he is really running Windows instead of macOS, what stops him from installing Windows Enterprise or IoT?
- rs186 11mo ago
  Windows Enterprise has the same bugs, and to a less extent, same ads as what you'll find in Home version. (Those in Edge to begin with)
  - 1718627440 11mo ago
    I think you can remove a lot of that with the Group Policy Editor.

by rs186 11mo ago

transcriptase 11mo ago

I just assume the entire Windows team uses OSX on their own time but have some kind of neural defect that prevents them from taking any lessons from it.

baq 11mo ago
OSX is not the paragon of UX, as evidenced by the long list of software I need to install to make it behave in a non-broken fashion. That said, I don’t think I disagree with your diagnosis. I’m just afraid they’re lifting more bad parts than good.
InitialBP 11mo ago
New macbooks with a notch hide icons underneath of the notch and those icons are completely inaccessible without installing 3rd party software to manage your status bar, or turning off a bunch of other software with visible icons on your bar. IMO that's a far worse UX than update and shutdown turning the computer back on at the end.
- mschuster91 11mo ago
  In a pinch you can reduce the spacing between items [1]. The default of macOS is ridiculously large. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spacing-of-menu-bar-apps-be-modified-in-macos-big-sur-and-later/465674#465674 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spa...
- Groxx 11mo ago
  you can finally set a screen resolution that just stays below the notch! I'm not sure when that became available, but I just used it a couple weeks ago.
  - ValentineC 11mo ago
    The sad thing about the current state of macOS is that I'd rather install an app to manage the menu bar than upgrade to the liquid glass monstrosity that is macOS Tahoe. (I'm also not an early adopter. I only went to Sequoia from Ventura a few months ago.)
    - Groxx 11mo ago
      in case this implies you haven't found it: it's a feature in Sequoia :) it's just in display settings, though you may have to turn on the "show all resolutions" toggle to show it. I haven't used Tahoe personally for more than a moment on someone else's computer, but wow they did not think that UI redesign through at all, did they. I'm actually kinda glad I'm mac-less now.
handsclean 11mo ago
Sounds like a hard life. So much time spent on buggy, unintuitive, jumbled, and half-assed OS, then the only time they get away from it, they have to use Windows.

ToucanLoucan 11mo ago

It’s frankly wild how many weird problems and UX pitfalls I experienced with my first PC in roughly 2005 are STILL issues. The fuck is Microsoft having all these engineers work all day on?

hulitu 11mo ago
> The fuck is Microsoft having all these engineers work all day on? Rounding corners of UI elements, changing size of UI elements, reshufling UI elements, AI maybe.
- ToucanLoucan 11mo ago
  And by changing size you do mean ballooning the size of. I've had to run my gaming laptop's screen at 0.75x via the nVidia panel because otherwise my freaking window titlebars take up a solid 8% of the usable space.

wat10000 11mo ago

That Steve Jobs story is from 1983 and the entire Mac team could probably have fit into a reasonably large conference room.

jack_tripper 11mo ago
I think he's talking about that story about the MacBook Air Presentation to Steve Jobs where he threw the prototype on the floor when he saw how slow it booted so they decided to switch to SSD only storage to mitigate this. It's however difficult to verify these stories.
- wat10000 11mo ago
  I hadn't heard that one, and I can't find anything online. Considering that the base model MacBook Air had spinning rust for the first two and a half years, I'm skeptical. The "Saving Lives" story I'm referring to is unverified but it does at least come from directly someone who was there.

piker 11mo ago

"Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up." In 2003 already; Amazing!

pif 11mo ago

> Microsoft is first and foremost a business oriented company, and what matters to them most is feature set, compatibility, support etc. As long as things mostly work, it's fine. Usability is at the bottom of the list. Blame their customers. Those people accepted random reboots for decades.

jwr 11mo ago

> Until I read the story about how Steve Jobs was mad about the fact that Mac was slow to start and asked teams to fix it. Surprise, they fixed it. What was different then was that Steve Jobs actually loved computers and used them. That is not the case for our modern computing behemoths (Microsoft or Apple). Dogfooding is a thing, and having a person in power who can say "no" is important.

1718627440 11mo ago

> I bet that Satya Nadella has grumbles about bugs and ads in Windows 11 Why should he? If he is really running Windows instead of macOS, what stops him from installing Windows Enterprise or IoT?

rs186 11mo ago
Windows Enterprise has the same bugs, and to a less extent, same ads as what you'll find in Home version. (Those in Edge to begin with)
- 1718627440 11mo ago
  I think you can remove a lot of that with the Group Policy Editor.