5 ms·

"Microsoft shipped a broken “Update and shut down” toggle with Windows 10, and it never acknowledged it until now." I guess they know what's best for the user

"Microsoft shipped a broken “Update and shut down” toggle with Windows 10, and it never acknowledged it until now." I guess they know what's best for the user base, and this was obviously deemed not important. But boy did they get Copilot integrated in everything post haste. Typical Microsoft hubris.

nusl 1y ago
Different teams, perhaps. No idea. A monster org like this must be massively disconnected internally, specially for non-critical bugs and such.
- SirFatty 1y ago
  I've been supporting MS as a career for 30+ years, so trust me, I understand that.. and it's a common excuse. But I don't accept it.
- rs186 1y ago
  I used to always think like that and try to come up with these excuses. Until I read the story about how Steve Jobs was mad about the fact that Mac was slow to start and asked teams to fix it. Surprise, they fixed it. And it's not like nobody could say anything at Microsoft. Someone on HN posted this email (originally from a different website): https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-tries-to-install-movie-maker https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-tries-to-install-mov... However, my guess is that this email got nowhere, because the experience of using Windows isn't so different decades later. What this means is that 1) Microsoft is first and foremost a business oriented company, and what matters to them most is feature set, compatibility, support etc. As long as things mostly work, it's fine. Usability is at the bottom of the list. 2) Windows is just not important to Microsoft any more. I bet that Satya Nadella has grumbles about bugs and ads in Windows 11, and likely has run into this specific bug first hand. But when he decides that "ads revenue trumps everything" and "these are just small bugs that don't really matter", he immediately forgets about it all.
  - transcriptase 1y ago
    I just assume the entire Windows team uses OSX on their own time but have some kind of neural defect that prevents them from taking any lessons from it.
    - baq 1y ago
      OSX is not the paragon of UX, as evidenced by the long list of software I need to install to make it behave in a non-broken fashion. That said, I don’t think I disagree with your diagnosis. I’m just afraid they’re lifting more bad parts than good.
    - InitialBP 1y ago
      New macbooks with a notch hide icons underneath of the notch and those icons are completely inaccessible without installing 3rd party software to manage your status bar, or turning off a bunch of other software with visible icons on your bar. IMO that's a far worse UX than update and shutdown turning the computer back on at the end.
      - mschuster91 1y ago
        In a pinch you can reduce the spacing between items [1]. The default of macOS is ridiculously large. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spacing-of-menu-bar-apps-be-modified-in-macos-big-sur-and-later/465674#465674 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spa...
      - Groxx 1y ago
        you can finally set a screen resolution that just stays below the notch! I'm not sure when that became available, but I just used it a couple weeks ago.
        ValentineC 1y ago
        The sad thing about the current state of macOS is that I'd rather install an app to manage the menu bar than upgrade to the liquid glass monstrosity that is macOS Tahoe. (I'm also not an early adopter. I only went to Sequoia from Ventura a few months ago.)
- hiddencost 1y ago
  New priorities get funding and promotions, so everyone abandons unglamorous but critical work.
- riffic 1y ago
  Conway's law would say so.
medwards666 1y ago
No, the truth of the matter is they needed Copilot in there to analyse and identify the bug for them. And then write the code to fix it...
delfinom 1y ago
"Update and shutdown" always worked for me in Windows 10 :shrug: Probably race condition galore that was hard to repro.
noir_lord 1y ago
> Typical Microsoft hubris. That hubris combined with a whole bunch of decisions I resent/actively dislike and the hassle to opt out of things I never asked for is why for the first time since the late 80's I don't have any Microsoft OS's on any of my PC's. I only used windows 11 for gaming and I don't really do that much anymore - I may have a look at steam/proton but not really in any hurry either. 90-95% of my computing life was spent inside Linux anyway.
pjmlp 1y ago
It is easy to have such hubris, when the competition at the shopping mall where most folks buy hardware is either crimpled Chromebooks and Android tablets, or overpriced Apple laptops, at least in what concerns most tier 2 and 3 countries. It would be nice to have somethig like Asus or Dell XPS, with Ubuntu LTS fully working laptop hardware at Dixons, FNAC, Publico, Worten, Cool Blue, Saturn, Media Markt,..... but it ain't happening. However after the netbook phase, that is yet to happen again.
- riffic 1y ago
  That's actually a key point to make. To generalize, people don't install operating systems. They buy a device with some sort of operating system on it.
  - hulitu 1y ago
    > They buy a device with some sort of operating system on it. They are force to. Try to find a computer without an OS.
    - ranger_danger 11mo ago
      Online? Infinitely easy IMO.
  - ranger_danger 11mo ago
    IMO This has always been the solution. Torvalds has been harping for decades "you must sell preinstalled hardware" to gain traction with Linux, but I've never seen it executed on a scale big enough to be useful.
Tadpole9181 1y ago
These kinds of comments make me question how many folk here are actually in tech or if my experience has been uncharacteristically grim. Does your company not have hundreds to thousands of backlogged tickets and bugs? Are there not different teams for different parts of the system? No triage policy for prioritizing work?
- McGlockenshire 1y ago
  Well, as it happened, when I was part of a company that released software, we prioritized high-visibility bugs that users complained about often. This is a high-visibility bug that users complain about often.

nusl 1y ago

Different teams, perhaps. No idea. A monster org like this must be massively disconnected internally, specially for non-critical bugs and such.

SirFatty 1y ago
I've been supporting MS as a career for 30+ years, so trust me, I understand that.. and it's a common excuse. But I don't accept it.
rs186 1y ago
I used to always think like that and try to come up with these excuses. Until I read the story about how Steve Jobs was mad about the fact that Mac was slow to start and asked teams to fix it. Surprise, they fixed it. And it's not like nobody could say anything at Microsoft. Someone on HN posted this email (originally from a different website): https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-tries-to-install-movie-maker https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-tries-to-install-mov... However, my guess is that this email got nowhere, because the experience of using Windows isn't so different decades later. What this means is that 1) Microsoft is first and foremost a business oriented company, and what matters to them most is feature set, compatibility, support etc. As long as things mostly work, it's fine. Usability is at the bottom of the list. 2) Windows is just not important to Microsoft any more. I bet that Satya Nadella has grumbles about bugs and ads in Windows 11, and likely has run into this specific bug first hand. But when he decides that "ads revenue trumps everything" and "these are just small bugs that don't really matter", he immediately forgets about it all.
- transcriptase 1y ago
  I just assume the entire Windows team uses OSX on their own time but have some kind of neural defect that prevents them from taking any lessons from it.
  - baq 1y ago
    OSX is not the paragon of UX, as evidenced by the long list of software I need to install to make it behave in a non-broken fashion. That said, I don’t think I disagree with your diagnosis. I’m just afraid they’re lifting more bad parts than good.
  - InitialBP 1y ago
    New macbooks with a notch hide icons underneath of the notch and those icons are completely inaccessible without installing 3rd party software to manage your status bar, or turning off a bunch of other software with visible icons on your bar. IMO that's a far worse UX than update and shutdown turning the computer back on at the end.
    - mschuster91 1y ago
      In a pinch you can reduce the spacing between items [1]. The default of macOS is ridiculously large. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spacing-of-menu-bar-apps-be-modified-in-macos-big-sur-and-later/465674#465674 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/406316/can-the-spa...
    - Groxx 1y ago
      you can finally set a screen resolution that just stays below the notch! I'm not sure when that became available, but I just used it a couple weeks ago.
      - ValentineC 1y ago
        The sad thing about the current state of macOS is that I'd rather install an app to manage the menu bar than upgrade to the liquid glass monstrosity that is macOS Tahoe. (I'm also not an early adopter. I only went to Sequoia from Ventura a few months ago.)
hiddencost 1y ago
New priorities get funding and promotions, so everyone abandons unglamorous but critical work.
riffic 1y ago
Conway's law would say so.

medwards666 1y ago

No, the truth of the matter is they needed Copilot in there to analyse and identify the bug for them. And then write the code to fix it...

delfinom 1y ago

"Update and shutdown" always worked for me in Windows 10 :shrug: Probably race condition galore that was hard to repro.

noir_lord 1y ago

> Typical Microsoft hubris. That hubris combined with a whole bunch of decisions I resent/actively dislike and the hassle to opt out of things I never asked for is why for the first time since the late 80's I don't have any Microsoft OS's on any of my PC's. I only used windows 11 for gaming and I don't really do that much anymore - I may have a look at steam/proton but not really in any hurry either. 90-95% of my computing life was spent inside Linux anyway.

pjmlp 1y ago

It is easy to have such hubris, when the competition at the shopping mall where most folks buy hardware is either crimpled Chromebooks and Android tablets, or overpriced Apple laptops, at least in what concerns most tier 2 and 3 countries. It would be nice to have somethig like Asus or Dell XPS, with Ubuntu LTS fully working laptop hardware at Dixons, FNAC, Publico, Worten, Cool Blue, Saturn, Media Markt,..... but it ain't happening. However after the netbook phase, that is yet to happen again.

riffic 1y ago
That's actually a key point to make. To generalize, people don't install operating systems. They buy a device with some sort of operating system on it.
- hulitu 1y ago
  > They buy a device with some sort of operating system on it. They are force to. Try to find a computer without an OS.
  - ranger_danger 11mo ago
    Online? Infinitely easy IMO.
- ranger_danger 11mo ago
  IMO This has always been the solution. Torvalds has been harping for decades "you must sell preinstalled hardware" to gain traction with Linux, but I've never seen it executed on a scale big enough to be useful.

Tadpole9181 1y ago

These kinds of comments make me question how many folk here are actually in tech or if my experience has been uncharacteristically grim. Does your company not have hundreds to thousands of backlogged tickets and bugs? Are there not different teams for different parts of the system? No triage policy for prioritizing work?

McGlockenshire 1y ago
Well, as it happened, when I was part of a company that released software, we prioritized high-visibility bugs that users complained about often. This is a high-visibility bug that users complain about often.