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That is looking at the past through rose colored glasses. Walkable cities are too small to have the wealth of options a car (or transit) city does. trains are

That is looking at the past through rose colored glasses. Walkable cities are too small to have the wealth of options a car (or transit) city does. trains are nice but cars were faster for most (until congestion - but by then there were so few users that service was bad)

wongarsu 1y ago
Being walkable doesn't preclude having transit though. It does clash with cars because cars need parking, and parking takes so much space that walking distances quickly become an issue. But subways, trams or even buses don't have that issue, they don't meaningfully decrease walkability European cities are also quite car-infected, but in many the older core still work somewhat similar to how cities worked back then: you have the daily necessities within a 10 minute walk, for anything else you can fetch transit to the city center within 15 minutes, where you generally get everything else (except Ikea)
- bluGill 1y ago
  My point was historical - in 1915 cars were a revolution to the few who had them, and there were so few in cities the downsides were not noticed.
cogman10 1y ago
> Walkable cities are too small to have the wealth of options a car (or transit) city does. It's counter intuitive but it's quiet the opposite. I've lived in the UK for a while and in some pretty walkable cities. Even in the smaller cities, what you'd find is a wealth of different shops and options catering to all sorts of needs. But then just consider that when you are walking you are being exposed to all the shops in the city. Cars isolate. You are much less likely to notice the hole in the wall specialty shop and you are much more likely to instead just go to a Walmart or national brand place to get what you want. And you'll much more likely want to stop at all in one stores such as Walmart because you don't want to hop in your car multiple times to get the shopping done. In walkable cities, it's almost like a mall experience in every city center. 3 doors down is the hardware store and 2 more stores is the candy shop. And because that downtown location is a highly desirable place with lots of foot traffic, any shop that goes out of business gets quickly replaced with another. Which means you generally end up with a lot of pretty high quality stores.
- bluGill 1y ago
  That depends on what you are looking for. There are plenty of shops for the common needs - but if you want an odd niche no small walkable area can support it. How many magic stories can your city support? Even something like a guitar shop need a very dense area for people who live in walking distance to be enough to support it. I can think of dozens of other niches - many smaller the above examples.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    > but if you want an odd niche no small walkable area can support it. You'd be really surprised. I knew smaller cities with shops dedicated to Warhammer 40k. [1] (Surprisingly, still in business :) ) > Even something like a guitar shop need a very dense area for people who live in walking distance to be enough to support it. A guitar shop just needs enough people interested in guitars. Being walkable doesn't mean there's no transit. Usually, walkable cities will have a city center where the shops are concentrated and if the city is big enough, you'll end up with a bus station in the city center. In fact, the referenced city has several of those shops. [2] This isn't a large city, it's around 100,000. It's also fairly isolated. Nobody is coming to this city to get a guitar. [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/nzmGkPKBCJi9xCAb7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/nzmGkPKBCJi9xCAb7 [2] https://maps.app.goo.gl/gB46tVVRa195NkNs8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/gB46tVVRa195NkNs8
    - bluGill 1y ago
      My comments (this thread) were in context of 120 years ago when cars were a rich person's toy and most people lived on farms and so didn't have access to the transit that existed. That a store can make it today is different because context is different. How many of the customers of the Warhammer store walked there from their house? How many came from a different cities because it was the closest store? The store does well because it can draw from a much larger area than a pure walking (or the limited trams of back then) Similar for guitars - I expect a city of 100k to support 1-2 guitar stores - but I expect the majority of customers are not walking. Maybe they drive, maybe they take transit.
prmoustache 1y ago
That is the opposite brcayse infrastructure to move and park cars occupy an awful lot of space that kill density.

wongarsu 1y ago

Being walkable doesn't preclude having transit though. It does clash with cars because cars need parking, and parking takes so much space that walking distances quickly become an issue. But subways, trams or even buses don't have that issue, they don't meaningfully decrease walkability European cities are also quite car-infected, but in many the older core still work somewhat similar to how cities worked back then: you have the daily necessities within a 10 minute walk, for anything else you can fetch transit to the city center within 15 minutes, where you generally get everything else (except Ikea)

bluGill 1y ago
My point was historical - in 1915 cars were a revolution to the few who had them, and there were so few in cities the downsides were not noticed.

cogman10 1y ago

> Walkable cities are too small to have the wealth of options a car (or transit) city does. It's counter intuitive but it's quiet the opposite. I've lived in the UK for a while and in some pretty walkable cities. Even in the smaller cities, what you'd find is a wealth of different shops and options catering to all sorts of needs. But then just consider that when you are walking you are being exposed to all the shops in the city. Cars isolate. You are much less likely to notice the hole in the wall specialty shop and you are much more likely to instead just go to a Walmart or national brand place to get what you want. And you'll much more likely want to stop at all in one stores such as Walmart because you don't want to hop in your car multiple times to get the shopping done. In walkable cities, it's almost like a mall experience in every city center. 3 doors down is the hardware store and 2 more stores is the candy shop. And because that downtown location is a highly desirable place with lots of foot traffic, any shop that goes out of business gets quickly replaced with another. Which means you generally end up with a lot of pretty high quality stores.

bluGill 1y ago
That depends on what you are looking for. There are plenty of shops for the common needs - but if you want an odd niche no small walkable area can support it. How many magic stories can your city support? Even something like a guitar shop need a very dense area for people who live in walking distance to be enough to support it. I can think of dozens of other niches - many smaller the above examples.
- cogman10 1y ago
  > but if you want an odd niche no small walkable area can support it. You'd be really surprised. I knew smaller cities with shops dedicated to Warhammer 40k. [1] (Surprisingly, still in business :) ) > Even something like a guitar shop need a very dense area for people who live in walking distance to be enough to support it. A guitar shop just needs enough people interested in guitars. Being walkable doesn't mean there's no transit. Usually, walkable cities will have a city center where the shops are concentrated and if the city is big enough, you'll end up with a bus station in the city center. In fact, the referenced city has several of those shops. [2] This isn't a large city, it's around 100,000. It's also fairly isolated. Nobody is coming to this city to get a guitar. [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/nzmGkPKBCJi9xCAb7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/nzmGkPKBCJi9xCAb7 [2] https://maps.app.goo.gl/gB46tVVRa195NkNs8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/gB46tVVRa195NkNs8
  - bluGill 1y ago
    My comments (this thread) were in context of 120 years ago when cars were a rich person's toy and most people lived on farms and so didn't have access to the transit that existed. That a store can make it today is different because context is different. How many of the customers of the Warhammer store walked there from their house? How many came from a different cities because it was the closest store? The store does well because it can draw from a much larger area than a pure walking (or the limited trams of back then) Similar for guitars - I expect a city of 100k to support 1-2 guitar stores - but I expect the majority of customers are not walking. Maybe they drive, maybe they take transit.

prmoustache 1y ago

That is the opposite brcayse infrastructure to move and park cars occupy an awful lot of space that kill density.