4 ms·

Modern urban car infrastructure is neither space- nor energy-efficient, but urban planning is long-term, and decisions shift all efficiency considerations in th

Modern urban car infrastructure is neither space- nor energy-efficient, but urban planning is long-term, and decisions shift all efficiency considerations in the long-term in a way that's hard to undo. For example, transportation of people with the modern extensive net of streets would be most convenient and efficient if there was some kind of public transportation in small buses, available on demand and price being determined by regular market mechanisms. The difference between what I imagine and things like Uber would be a strong integration with existing train and bus lines, and public funding and legislation. Maybe self-driving will get us there, but there are also many political hurdles that make the less efficient option (high coefficient of cars pp) more attractive than the alternative that could provide better efficiency (and, ideally, also great user experience).

userbinator 1y ago
Efficiency should not be pursued to the exclusion of everything else. As the article itself says: transportation should be about more than just getting from A to B; it should be a pleasure as well
- moritzwarhier 1y ago
  I would not deny this, and I don't judge people for enjoying to drive. It doesn't prevent me from thinking about alternative worlds / cities though, or in this case, just a stronger focus on establishing public car-based transportation (such as buses), in addition to train lines, which take very long to be built or are currently lacking space to be built altogether, where they would be most needed.
- bluGill 1y ago
  That is stupid. people have places to be. Only a tiny minority are on transit for fun. Everyone else just wants to be there. you do these people a massive disservice by not making their ride efficient. and the minority who are for the ride will figure out how to make it work.
  - econ 1y ago
    I'm not sure. I want to see public transport in a city done with rollercoasters. The amount using it for fun would go up dramatically. It would change overnight from just another utterly boring city not worth visiting into a tourist hot spot. Similarly, people who need to be places will make it work. Life is about the journey. All those roads and other boring means of transportation are just places no one wants to be.
    - schrodinger 1y ago
      I love this. As another poster brought up, plenty of people buy enjoyable cars and motorcycles for the pleasure of driving. Why not add a little spice to life?
      - bluGill 1y ago
        Spice is fine - but you still need to get places and that is the primary goal of most cars. People who have the car/motorcycle for fun only nearly all have some other vehicle they use as the "daily driver" to get places. I might take a train on a sunday drive myself once in a while. The majority of uses should be for people trying to get someplace. If the trip is also fun that is a bonus, but if it is only fun but otherwise worthless (that is something else is enough better) your system won't get many riders.
        econ 11mo ago
        I'm not sure, the thing is, a vehicle is also a place. I had a great time working for a company using camper vans. You get almost everything a brick house offers. A lot of people have recreational boats. They go places but the destination isn't half the fun. With cruse ships the destination is perhaps 5-10%? Maybe we got it all wrong. Perhaps trains should have lan gaming. Have some exclusieve game that one can only play in the train with some exclusive content for the specific trip. One could also do exclusive interactive educational material. There is a lot to learn before you become a train driver, train manager, mechanic, engineer, cleaner, etc etc
    - 1y ago
- tensor 1y ago
  There is absolutely nothing less pleasing than sitting in traffic in a major North American city with aggressive drivers all around you constantly breaking laws because they think they are more important than everyone else. In contrast European trains are down right relaxing.
  - lan321 1y ago
    Until you see the expected delay going up and you have to start doing the maths of whether you can run from X to Y in under a minute, frantically googling for a second connection and how much a taxi would cost.. (my DB experience since I usually travel by train for flights)
    - tcfhgj 1y ago
      googling? how about just letting your app (e.g. db, öffi, ...) show all connections to the target form the updated place.
shubb 1y ago
I think citymapper tried to execu this as a pivot. They had an idea to do it in London and other countries and did trial it for a while. Not sure why it (presumably) failed. I'd note that startup money of the is much harder to get in London, so a US startup might be able to force the idea from experiment to profitability.
cguess 1y ago
> available on demand This doesn't work in cities. The vast majority of peoples movement are not immediately necessary. They can wait 10-15 minutes (or plan ahead) for efficiency. This also cuts down on costs for everyone.
- bluGill 1y ago
  On demand is bad but not for that reason. people have places to be and are bad at planning. You should be running every 5 minutes so even if they are running late it still isn't very long until you get there. every 10-15 minutes is cheaper and so because of cost you are often forced to be this bad (or worse) just to be affordable, but it isn't what anyone wants and people who use such systems will dream of ways to make a car work where they are
  - cguess 1y ago
    I live in a place where transit is about every 10-15 minutes and I never dream of a car. I mostly thank god every day I don't have to rely on one.
bluGill 1y ago
On demand is bad! People have places to be and they need to be able to depend on arriving on time. on demand means they can't be sure when the transport will detour to pick someone else up thus making them late. what we need are reliable fixed routes that are predictable. making on denand reliable means that there are more vehicles driving around than we now have cars - as empty vehicles reposition just in case someone else wants to go someplace right after you.
- moritzwarhier 1y ago
  > making on denand reliable means that there are more vehicles driving around than we now have cars - as empty vehicles reposition just in case someone else wants to go someplace right after you. I was explicitly refering to buses because of that, or had in mind something like modern IT plus ride sharing: to use cars more efficiently. And, in opposition to the other comment thread, my opinion is that this would improve the quality of life for people in the long-term (in urban areas, even in the relatively short term). But without FSD, it requires drivers, so it requires more complex considerations than "just" directing cars to where there needed. At this point, the discussion becomes tiresome and political. But to me, the convenience of personally owned vehicles combined with the public infrastructure needed for them is inefficient in a way that affects people negatively in urban spaces. "Space efficiency" to me would also mean to stop making life worse for people who, for whatever reason, happen to be outside but not in a car or, god forbid, need to get to places without owning a car. I'm not dreaming of a world without cars, but I detest the concrete wasteland that I have to live in for having destroyed quality of life in favor of an excess of parking and driving areas. So I'd certainly like a world with way fewer cars and certainly I am against further increasing excess cars per person. But, like I said, to use cars efficiently, there needs to be a consensus. Because cars require public space, and lots of it.
thrance 1y ago
As far as I'm concerned, transportation is solved. I live in Paris, there are 14 (soon to be 15) metro lines covering the city in a dense underground mesh, and you never have to wait more the 5 minutes to hop into one.
- bluGill 1y ago
  Paris doesn't have the best transit in the world, but they get credit for being very good and useful. Most of the world has a lot to learn from them. Most people don't live in places with transport anywhere near that good. Don't get complainant. There is still a lot Paris needs to improve on. Please show the world what the next level looks like.

userbinator 1y ago

Efficiency should not be pursued to the exclusion of everything else. As the article itself says: transportation should be about more than just getting from A to B; it should be a pleasure as well

moritzwarhier 1y ago
I would not deny this, and I don't judge people for enjoying to drive. It doesn't prevent me from thinking about alternative worlds / cities though, or in this case, just a stronger focus on establishing public car-based transportation (such as buses), in addition to train lines, which take very long to be built or are currently lacking space to be built altogether, where they would be most needed.
bluGill 1y ago
That is stupid. people have places to be. Only a tiny minority are on transit for fun. Everyone else just wants to be there. you do these people a massive disservice by not making their ride efficient. and the minority who are for the ride will figure out how to make it work.
- econ 1y ago
  I'm not sure. I want to see public transport in a city done with rollercoasters. The amount using it for fun would go up dramatically. It would change overnight from just another utterly boring city not worth visiting into a tourist hot spot. Similarly, people who need to be places will make it work. Life is about the journey. All those roads and other boring means of transportation are just places no one wants to be.
  - schrodinger 1y ago
    I love this. As another poster brought up, plenty of people buy enjoyable cars and motorcycles for the pleasure of driving. Why not add a little spice to life?
    - bluGill 1y ago
      Spice is fine - but you still need to get places and that is the primary goal of most cars. People who have the car/motorcycle for fun only nearly all have some other vehicle they use as the "daily driver" to get places. I might take a train on a sunday drive myself once in a while. The majority of uses should be for people trying to get someplace. If the trip is also fun that is a bonus, but if it is only fun but otherwise worthless (that is something else is enough better) your system won't get many riders.
      - econ 11mo ago
        I'm not sure, the thing is, a vehicle is also a place. I had a great time working for a company using camper vans. You get almost everything a brick house offers. A lot of people have recreational boats. They go places but the destination isn't half the fun. With cruse ships the destination is perhaps 5-10%? Maybe we got it all wrong. Perhaps trains should have lan gaming. Have some exclusieve game that one can only play in the train with some exclusive content for the specific trip. One could also do exclusive interactive educational material. There is a lot to learn before you become a train driver, train manager, mechanic, engineer, cleaner, etc etc
  - 1y ago
tensor 1y ago
There is absolutely nothing less pleasing than sitting in traffic in a major North American city with aggressive drivers all around you constantly breaking laws because they think they are more important than everyone else. In contrast European trains are down right relaxing.
- lan321 1y ago
  Until you see the expected delay going up and you have to start doing the maths of whether you can run from X to Y in under a minute, frantically googling for a second connection and how much a taxi would cost.. (my DB experience since I usually travel by train for flights)
  - tcfhgj 1y ago
    googling? how about just letting your app (e.g. db, öffi, ...) show all connections to the target form the updated place.

shubb 1y ago

I think citymapper tried to execu this as a pivot. They had an idea to do it in London and other countries and did trial it for a while. Not sure why it (presumably) failed. I'd note that startup money of the is much harder to get in London, so a US startup might be able to force the idea from experiment to profitability.

cguess 1y ago

> available on demand This doesn't work in cities. The vast majority of peoples movement are not immediately necessary. They can wait 10-15 minutes (or plan ahead) for efficiency. This also cuts down on costs for everyone.

bluGill 1y ago
On demand is bad but not for that reason. people have places to be and are bad at planning. You should be running every 5 minutes so even if they are running late it still isn't very long until you get there. every 10-15 minutes is cheaper and so because of cost you are often forced to be this bad (or worse) just to be affordable, but it isn't what anyone wants and people who use such systems will dream of ways to make a car work where they are
- cguess 1y ago
  I live in a place where transit is about every 10-15 minutes and I never dream of a car. I mostly thank god every day I don't have to rely on one.

bluGill 1y ago

On demand is bad! People have places to be and they need to be able to depend on arriving on time. on demand means they can't be sure when the transport will detour to pick someone else up thus making them late. what we need are reliable fixed routes that are predictable. making on denand reliable means that there are more vehicles driving around than we now have cars - as empty vehicles reposition just in case someone else wants to go someplace right after you.

moritzwarhier 1y ago
> making on denand reliable means that there are more vehicles driving around than we now have cars - as empty vehicles reposition just in case someone else wants to go someplace right after you. I was explicitly refering to buses because of that, or had in mind something like modern IT plus ride sharing: to use cars more efficiently. And, in opposition to the other comment thread, my opinion is that this would improve the quality of life for people in the long-term (in urban areas, even in the relatively short term). But without FSD, it requires drivers, so it requires more complex considerations than "just" directing cars to where there needed. At this point, the discussion becomes tiresome and political. But to me, the convenience of personally owned vehicles combined with the public infrastructure needed for them is inefficient in a way that affects people negatively in urban spaces. "Space efficiency" to me would also mean to stop making life worse for people who, for whatever reason, happen to be outside but not in a car or, god forbid, need to get to places without owning a car. I'm not dreaming of a world without cars, but I detest the concrete wasteland that I have to live in for having destroyed quality of life in favor of an excess of parking and driving areas. So I'd certainly like a world with way fewer cars and certainly I am against further increasing excess cars per person. But, like I said, to use cars efficiently, there needs to be a consensus. Because cars require public space, and lots of it.

thrance 1y ago

As far as I'm concerned, transportation is solved. I live in Paris, there are 14 (soon to be 15) metro lines covering the city in a dense underground mesh, and you never have to wait more the 5 minutes to hop into one.

bluGill 1y ago
Paris doesn't have the best transit in the world, but they get credit for being very good and useful. Most of the world has a lot to learn from them. Most people don't live in places with transport anywhere near that good. Don't get complainant. There is still a lot Paris needs to improve on. Please show the world what the next level looks like.