45 ms·

The context is the question of if human rights are universal or only for certain privileged groups

by _yb2s 11mo ago

pfannkuchen 11mo ago
Those are your personal abstraction boundaries. It is a perfectly coherent set of positions to oppose enslaving humans while at the same time being selective about which humans you allow into your nation. The “founding fathers” factually prohibited non-whites from being citizens of America. So what if they were opposed to slavery or not? Those are entirely different matters, and a position on slavery does not imply anything about a position on “any person on earth can be an American”.
- TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
  This is not an issue of who is allowed into the country. It is an issue of who has the right to due process to determine whether they are allowed in the country or not. The first point should not apply to everyone, but the second absolutely must. Trusting an un-auditable black box over all other evidence to determine who is allowed in the country is a violation of everyone's human rights.
  - pfannkuchen 11mo ago
    What due process is being skipped? People are arrested all the time when they are innocent, and that is not widely considered to be skipping due process. If they are jailed for a crime without appearing before a judge for example then due process has been skipped, but whether someone has committed a crime requires a judge to check, whereas I imagine whether someone is in the country legally just requires checking some databases. Have citizens been deported by accident? I haven’t seen any reports of that.
    - _yb2s 11mo ago
      You seem to be unaware of what is happening right now on the streets- there are thousands of videos all over social media you should spend a few hours watching. Peaceful citizens minding their own business are being terrorized and beaten by unprofessional and violent masked goons at a massive scale. The perpetrators are hiding their identities and often refusing to even look at documents proving someone is a citizen. In the detention centers people are being brutalized- left to sit for days in human shit, diabetics denied insulin, bright lights on 24/7, and food and water provided only as rewards for desires behaviors. Congress is denied their legal right and responsibility to tour the facilities, allowing them to hide human rights abuses. The cruelty and sadism of the tactics used is ratcheting up every week, and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged. Victims have no recourse- the DOJ and legal system are blocking victims from being able to even press charges, allowing these abuses to continue with no recourse. I'm not sure about citizens being deported other than children of non-citizens together with their parents, but they are deporting huge numbers of people here legally on visas, green cards, and valid asylum claims. They revoked visas of some 6,000 college students - mostly for political "wrongthink" and then sent ICE agents after them, when it's actually legal in the USA for them to remain with a revoked student visa as long as they arrived legally, and illegal to detain or deport. They've also arrested and detained hundreds of citizens, that they absolutely knew were citizens, for peaceful protesting and video taping their illegal activities.
      - pfannkuchen 11mo ago
        I’ve seen some videos, but I haven’t noticed anything beyond what I’ve previously seen in standard USA law enforcement bodycam footage. Resisting, fleeing, obstructing arrest are met with force, and sometimes too much force. Too much force is bad, but it doesn’t seem new or qualitatively different to me in the way many are acting like it is. I do see the media going hysterical about it, but I’ve seen them do that about a lot of things and I can’t say it really affects me at this point other than making me extremely skeptical that whatever they’re going hysterical about is actually like they say it is. Are you saying you’ve seen videos where ICE is like going to bus stops and just beating up random people? Everything I’ve seen is like, ICE rolls up, guys start running, ICE gets rough with them. Or ICE rolls up, people are heckling them, ICE gets rough with them. I think that would happen with any drug bust, for example. If people start heckling a swat team, does the swat team respond with kindness? Well, we don’t see many videos of that, because nobody heckles swat teams. Why are people fleeing, resisting or obstructing? They are law enforcement officers, and if you do that to them, you are going to have a bad time. Law enforcement in America has been like that for my entire life, at least. Am I in some kind of filter bubble where I’ve only seen ICE videos of the sort I’ve described, and you’ve seen videos of ICE tackling a grandma getting the mail? I’m seriously asking, I just gave up watching videos like this because they were all like I described. ICE refusing to look at documents seems not unreasonable, have all of those club bouncer tier men had training on how to spot fake government documents? Like can they know what every birth certificate from every state looks like from every year and then verify it on the spot? That doesn’t seem reasonable to expect once I thought about what it would entail. > and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged I was replying in a serious manner but comon this is flat earth tier foaming at the mouth stuff. You are seriously telling me that they are firing people who don’t break the law? That is like comic book tier villainy. How would we possibly even know that, did their policy book leak? My theory is that this is triggering the mental programming everyone had as children about WW2 despite being a completely different situation. If you tell literally all children that X is the most evil thing ever, you might end up with adults who are so sensitive to recognizing X that they see it when it isn’t there.
        TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
    - TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
      People are arrested all the time when they have official government paperwork stating that they definitively did not do the thing they are being arrested for? That's news to me.

The context is the question of if human rights are universal or only for certain privileged groups

by _yb2s 11mo ago

The context is the question of if human rights are universal or only for certain privileged groups

Those are your personal abstraction boundaries. It is a perfectly coherent set of positions to oppose enslaving humans while at the same time being selective about which humans you allow into your nation. The “founding fathers” factually prohibited non-whites from being citizens of America. So what if they were opposed to slavery or not? Those are entirely different matters, and a position on slavery does not imply anything about a position on “any person on earth can be an American”.

TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
This is not an issue of who is allowed into the country. It is an issue of who has the right to due process to determine whether they are allowed in the country or not. The first point should not apply to everyone, but the second absolutely must. Trusting an un-auditable black box over all other evidence to determine who is allowed in the country is a violation of everyone's human rights.
- pfannkuchen 11mo ago
  What due process is being skipped? People are arrested all the time when they are innocent, and that is not widely considered to be skipping due process. If they are jailed for a crime without appearing before a judge for example then due process has been skipped, but whether someone has committed a crime requires a judge to check, whereas I imagine whether someone is in the country legally just requires checking some databases. Have citizens been deported by accident? I haven’t seen any reports of that.
  - _yb2s 11mo ago
    You seem to be unaware of what is happening right now on the streets- there are thousands of videos all over social media you should spend a few hours watching. Peaceful citizens minding their own business are being terrorized and beaten by unprofessional and violent masked goons at a massive scale. The perpetrators are hiding their identities and often refusing to even look at documents proving someone is a citizen. In the detention centers people are being brutalized- left to sit for days in human shit, diabetics denied insulin, bright lights on 24/7, and food and water provided only as rewards for desires behaviors. Congress is denied their legal right and responsibility to tour the facilities, allowing them to hide human rights abuses. The cruelty and sadism of the tactics used is ratcheting up every week, and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged. Victims have no recourse- the DOJ and legal system are blocking victims from being able to even press charges, allowing these abuses to continue with no recourse. I'm not sure about citizens being deported other than children of non-citizens together with their parents, but they are deporting huge numbers of people here legally on visas, green cards, and valid asylum claims. They revoked visas of some 6,000 college students - mostly for political "wrongthink" and then sent ICE agents after them, when it's actually legal in the USA for them to remain with a revoked student visa as long as they arrived legally, and illegal to detain or deport. They've also arrested and detained hundreds of citizens, that they absolutely knew were citizens, for peaceful protesting and video taping their illegal activities.
    - pfannkuchen 11mo ago
      I’ve seen some videos, but I haven’t noticed anything beyond what I’ve previously seen in standard USA law enforcement bodycam footage. Resisting, fleeing, obstructing arrest are met with force, and sometimes too much force. Too much force is bad, but it doesn’t seem new or qualitatively different to me in the way many are acting like it is. I do see the media going hysterical about it, but I’ve seen them do that about a lot of things and I can’t say it really affects me at this point other than making me extremely skeptical that whatever they’re going hysterical about is actually like they say it is. Are you saying you’ve seen videos where ICE is like going to bus stops and just beating up random people? Everything I’ve seen is like, ICE rolls up, guys start running, ICE gets rough with them. Or ICE rolls up, people are heckling them, ICE gets rough with them. I think that would happen with any drug bust, for example. If people start heckling a swat team, does the swat team respond with kindness? Well, we don’t see many videos of that, because nobody heckles swat teams. Why are people fleeing, resisting or obstructing? They are law enforcement officers, and if you do that to them, you are going to have a bad time. Law enforcement in America has been like that for my entire life, at least. Am I in some kind of filter bubble where I’ve only seen ICE videos of the sort I’ve described, and you’ve seen videos of ICE tackling a grandma getting the mail? I’m seriously asking, I just gave up watching videos like this because they were all like I described. ICE refusing to look at documents seems not unreasonable, have all of those club bouncer tier men had training on how to spot fake government documents? Like can they know what every birth certificate from every state looks like from every year and then verify it on the spot? That doesn’t seem reasonable to expect once I thought about what it would entail. > and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged I was replying in a serious manner but comon this is flat earth tier foaming at the mouth stuff. You are seriously telling me that they are firing people who don’t break the law? That is like comic book tier villainy. How would we possibly even know that, did their policy book leak? My theory is that this is triggering the mental programming everyone had as children about WW2 despite being a completely different situation. If you tell literally all children that X is the most evil thing ever, you might end up with adults who are so sensitive to recognizing X that they see it when it isn’t there.
      - TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
  - TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
    People are arrested all the time when they have official government paperwork stating that they definitively did not do the thing they are being arrested for? That's news to me.