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I don't think that Bret is advocating that this is the way all programming should be. That would be strictly impossible, as some functions have totally non-line

by neilk 14y ago

I don't think that Bret is advocating that this is the way all programming should be. That would be strictly impossible, as some functions have totally non-linear effects on their output, so you couldn't easily connect one to the other with handy arrows and highlighted stuff. The geometry example is chosen because it's easy to make a mapping between the space of function inputs and visual outputs. And each parameter is independent of each other. Khan Academy has already implemented some of this for JavaScript, running right in the browser. http://www.khanacademy.org/cs/drawing-bonus-rotation/906448125 http://www.khanacademy.org/cs/drawing-bonus-rotation/9064481... Try clicking on the coloration functions to see previews, or sweeping with the mouse to change the values. As for the more advanced features, many languages exist today which make this quite possible, at least for teaching tools. Even well-commented Java has the kind of typing and documentation culture that would allow you to implement a lot of this today.

ygra 14y ago
Java's documentation, while allowing to document each parameter, still doesn't make the actual result of changing a parameter obvious to a program. In Bret's video, where hovering over a parameter would show what exactly would change – that requires either machine-readable metadata (i.e. x position of top-left corner of the shape) or additional programming to make available. Javadoc as it exists is just a semi-structured and very thin wrapper around HTML. Not really much a computer could do anything with. The general problem I see with Bret's approach, while it works very well for restricted programming environments intended for beginners and learners, it falls short for more complex things. But then again, those of us who know half the language framework by heart anyway won't probably need as much guidance or fiddling around. Still, it requires augmenting each and every function with a piece of visualisation code or enough metadata so a development environment can apply the visualisation itself.
- faceyspacey 14y ago
  he's suggesting we as tech startup entrepreneur type guys go out and imagine the actual solutions that can work across a number of problems based on the examples he's provided. I'm absolutely so surprised by the lack of imagination here at HN. This is startup ideas gold right here, and none of you seem to have the mental capabilities to dig it out and do something with it. You all want to find something wrong with it. Ever since I've been tracking Bret Victor, my head has been spinning with tons of practical ideas we can implement today to make us more productive at programming. Light Table is a fantastic start. What's the problem here, guys! You guys just don't want to admit the way you've been coding thus far will soon be obsolete and you've been wasting your time. Yes, your skills will eventually be worthless.

by neilk 14y ago

ygra 14y ago

Java's documentation, while allowing to document each parameter, still doesn't make the actual result of changing a parameter obvious to a program. In Bret's video, where hovering over a parameter would show what exactly would change – that requires either machine-readable metadata (i.e. x position of top-left corner of the shape) or additional programming to make available. Javadoc as it exists is just a semi-structured and very thin wrapper around HTML. Not really much a computer could do anything with. The general problem I see with Bret's approach, while it works very well for restricted programming environments intended for beginners and learners, it falls short for more complex things. But then again, those of us who know half the language framework by heart anyway won't probably need as much guidance or fiddling around. Still, it requires augmenting each and every function with a piece of visualisation code or enough metadata so a development environment can apply the visualisation itself.

faceyspacey 14y ago
he's suggesting we as tech startup entrepreneur type guys go out and imagine the actual solutions that can work across a number of problems based on the examples he's provided. I'm absolutely so surprised by the lack of imagination here at HN. This is startup ideas gold right here, and none of you seem to have the mental capabilities to dig it out and do something with it. You all want to find something wrong with it. Ever since I've been tracking Bret Victor, my head has been spinning with tons of practical ideas we can implement today to make us more productive at programming. Light Table is a fantastic start. What's the problem here, guys! You guys just don't want to admit the way you've been coding thus far will soon be obsolete and you've been wasting your time. Yes, your skills will eventually be worthless.