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I think you're confused about civil versus criminal violations. Just because a violation is civil does not mean it can't have serious consequences. JP Morgan

by refurb 1y ago

I think you're confused about civil versus criminal violations. Just because a violation is civil does not mean it can't have serious consequences. JP Morgan was sloppy in it's mortgage approvals contributing to the financial crisis of 2007. Do you think that's not a serious matter? That was entirely a civil, not criminal matter. And overstaying a visa has serious consequences. It's not a fine and you can go on living in the US illegally. You will be deported and receive a 3-10 year ban on re-entry. Reenter again and it's criminal matter. But you're also ignoring the numerous criminal violations that occur with illegal immigration. Illegal entry, reentry after deportation, immigration fraud, using fraudulent documents, human trafficking, recieving social services reserved for citizens. All of these are criminal violations. And no, investigating a possible civil or criminal matter and detaining people while you conduct your investigation has nothing to do with due process. Police and immigration officials need these limited powers to do their job. Each of these people detained will either be released or stand in front of a judge, which shows they received due process.

20after4 1y ago
That assumes a lot of good faith from the current administration which I am certain that they have not earned. They have repeatedly violated the normal procedures, ignored court orders and even lied to judges. They obviously have contempt for the law so it doesn't make sense to assume that they are following proper procedures.
- refurb 1y ago
  Sure, I understand that perspective. Trump’s random comments about the law are that helpful in instilling trust that laws are being followed. But at the same time, when the prior norms were incredibly lax to the point many immigration laws were ignored, suddenly enforcing what is on the books can look rather jarring.
  - 20after4 1y ago
    There is a whole lot of evidence that they have been violating the laws, not just suddenly enforcing them. Maybe start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uleKvJ5Xsw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uleKvJ5Xsw8
    - refurb 1y ago
      This is a video titled “America’s Gulag”. That alone makes me think it’s not going to provide a fact based balanced view of the issue. But regardless it’s a 30 min video, so is there something you feel is important because I don’t have the time. Maybe an article from a more reputable source? I mean it starts with “ICE agents breaking car windows”. If you’re asked to exit your vehicle by a federal law officer and you just roll up the window that will happen. The US (and in fact no country) has rules where a law enforcement officer with probable cause is supposed to give up when a suspect refuses to follow orders. The five minutes I listened to seemed suspect since it’s a women just saying “they do this” with no sources. Am I just supposed to take her at her word?
      - habinero 1y ago
        What proof would you accept? Do you want evidence of ICE ignoring legal others? Citizens who were arrested for no reason? An ICE officer admitting they target people based on how they look and not on any actual legal criteria? Or do you just want to look away and not see?
        refurb 1y ago
        Facts would be nice. Courts ruling that rights were violated. A YouTube video where someone summarizes what they think is happening is not facts. But like I said point me to a specific time in that 30 min video you think supports your claim. You did watch the whole thing, right?
        20after4 1y ago
        This much shorter video shows some actual interaction with agents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf_3G_WCmdI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf_3G_WCmdI
habinero 1y ago
I mean, illegal parking and speeding has serious consequences too. Next time you get pulled over, how about you spending a month in jail, losing your job, and dealing with the unsafe and unsanitary conditions of jail while the police research if their speed cameras were calibrated properly? That seems fair. Due process means limiting the government. You do not get to drag citizens into unmarked vans because you think they might have violated a civil matter.

by refurb 1y ago

20after4 1y ago

That assumes a lot of good faith from the current administration which I am certain that they have not earned. They have repeatedly violated the normal procedures, ignored court orders and even lied to judges. They obviously have contempt for the law so it doesn't make sense to assume that they are following proper procedures.

refurb 1y ago
Sure, I understand that perspective. Trump’s random comments about the law are that helpful in instilling trust that laws are being followed. But at the same time, when the prior norms were incredibly lax to the point many immigration laws were ignored, suddenly enforcing what is on the books can look rather jarring.
- 20after4 1y ago
  There is a whole lot of evidence that they have been violating the laws, not just suddenly enforcing them. Maybe start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uleKvJ5Xsw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uleKvJ5Xsw8
  - refurb 1y ago
    This is a video titled “America’s Gulag”. That alone makes me think it’s not going to provide a fact based balanced view of the issue. But regardless it’s a 30 min video, so is there something you feel is important because I don’t have the time. Maybe an article from a more reputable source? I mean it starts with “ICE agents breaking car windows”. If you’re asked to exit your vehicle by a federal law officer and you just roll up the window that will happen. The US (and in fact no country) has rules where a law enforcement officer with probable cause is supposed to give up when a suspect refuses to follow orders. The five minutes I listened to seemed suspect since it’s a women just saying “they do this” with no sources. Am I just supposed to take her at her word?
    - habinero 1y ago
      What proof would you accept? Do you want evidence of ICE ignoring legal others? Citizens who were arrested for no reason? An ICE officer admitting they target people based on how they look and not on any actual legal criteria? Or do you just want to look away and not see?
      - refurb 1y ago
        Facts would be nice. Courts ruling that rights were violated. A YouTube video where someone summarizes what they think is happening is not facts. But like I said point me to a specific time in that 30 min video you think supports your claim. You did watch the whole thing, right?
        20after4 1y ago
        This much shorter video shows some actual interaction with agents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf_3G_WCmdI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf_3G_WCmdI

habinero 1y ago

I mean, illegal parking and speeding has serious consequences too. Next time you get pulled over, how about you spending a month in jail, losing your job, and dealing with the unsafe and unsanitary conditions of jail while the police research if their speed cameras were calibrated properly? That seems fair. Due process means limiting the government. You do not get to drag citizens into unmarked vans because you think they might have violated a civil matter.