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You’re ignoring the cases where people produce fraudulent documentation proving they are a citizen. Do you just throw up your hands “i guess there is nothing w

by refurb 1y ago

You’re ignoring the cases where people produce fraudulent documentation proving they are a citizen. Do you just throw up your hands “i guess there is nothing we can do”? What I find entertaining as a non-US citizen is how border enforcement is table stakes in every other country I’ve lived in (5 so far). Even the left doesn’t question it, it’s a basic function of a government. Even the less developed countries have relatively straightforward enforcement. You produce proof you’re there legally or you’re put on the next flight home. Since I lived in the US people keep asking me why some Americans don’t want border security. I don’t have a good answer.

habinero 1y ago
> You’re ignoring the cases where people produce fraudulent documentation proving they are a citizen. Citation needed lol.
- refurb 1y ago
  “In Fiscal Year 2023, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers in the Cincinnati area alone intercepted and identified more than 6,800 fraudulent, counterfeit, or stolen documents.” https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cincinnati-cbp-intercepts-thousands-fraudulent-and-counterfeit https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cincinnati-... That ONE CBP office in the US. And it’s not even in a state with a high population of illegal aliens. There are 20 offices in the US. And sure creating fraudulent documents from scratch isn’t easy. But it’s not that hard to use someone else’s identity to get documents that support US citizenship. Hell, a paper social security card is proof as long as it doesn’t say “NOT WORK AUTHORIZED on it. So it wouldn’t even be that unusual to locate an alien that the database says (correctly) has a deportation order but for them to claim US citizenship and even produce a document that looks like they are. You can even read a nice CBP report on the problems they have with fraudulent documents. https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/OIG-25-40-Sep25.pdf https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/O...
  - matthewdgreen 1y ago
    With due respect, that problem is on CBP. I am somewhat (albeit decreasingly) sympathetic to the unique challenges that immigration enforcement agencies face in the US. We live in a country where the citizens have decided democratically that no US citizen will ever have to carry proof of US citizenship, and moreover, that national ID and standardized proof-of-citizenship passports should not even be mandatory for citizens to possess, let alone carry. We even decided that the Federal Government should be explicitly banned from creating those forms of ID. We made these decisions for various reasons, but broadly because the voters felt that US citizenship and lawfullness should be presumptions, rather than something you had to prove in order to enjoy your rights as a citizen. For an immigration agent, this is really tough. You have to identify unauthorized immigrants in an environment where you can't just require lawful citizens to carry ID or proof of citizenship. You legally can't arrest or (more than briefly) detain a US citizen for failure to carry citizenship documents. You have to walk on eggshells even with actual unauthorized immigrants, to avoid violating the law. And our proof-of-identity document systems are deliberately decentralized and unreliable, so you can't just check a master database. It's a tough problem! But that's the way the cookie crumbles. We designed our society to make this kind of "papers please" enforcement difficult, which means that immigration enforcement needs to be smarter and more savvy, or else we need to actually change the laws. What ICE and CBP are trying to do now is just to ignore the law, and that doesn't work. Citizens' built this law to protect their rights; you can't just take away those rights because CBP have a tough job.
    - refurb 1y ago
      Nobody is saying citizens need to carry papers. My only point is that when a deportation order shows a name and face, people can still produce fraudulent documents showing they are a citizen. It’s not a uniquely American problem.
      - habinero 1y ago
        6,000 supposed papers for a pool of 5 million immigrants seems like an extremely minor problem that doesn't require shooting food bank workers to enforce.

by refurb 1y ago

habinero 1y ago

> You’re ignoring the cases where people produce fraudulent documentation proving they are a citizen. Citation needed lol.

refurb 1y ago
“In Fiscal Year 2023, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers in the Cincinnati area alone intercepted and identified more than 6,800 fraudulent, counterfeit, or stolen documents.” https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cincinnati-cbp-intercepts-thousands-fraudulent-and-counterfeit https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cincinnati-... That ONE CBP office in the US. And it’s not even in a state with a high population of illegal aliens. There are 20 offices in the US. And sure creating fraudulent documents from scratch isn’t easy. But it’s not that hard to use someone else’s identity to get documents that support US citizenship. Hell, a paper social security card is proof as long as it doesn’t say “NOT WORK AUTHORIZED on it. So it wouldn’t even be that unusual to locate an alien that the database says (correctly) has a deportation order but for them to claim US citizenship and even produce a document that looks like they are. You can even read a nice CBP report on the problems they have with fraudulent documents. https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/OIG-25-40-Sep25.pdf https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/O...
- matthewdgreen 1y ago
  With due respect, that problem is on CBP. I am somewhat (albeit decreasingly) sympathetic to the unique challenges that immigration enforcement agencies face in the US. We live in a country where the citizens have decided democratically that no US citizen will ever have to carry proof of US citizenship, and moreover, that national ID and standardized proof-of-citizenship passports should not even be mandatory for citizens to possess, let alone carry. We even decided that the Federal Government should be explicitly banned from creating those forms of ID. We made these decisions for various reasons, but broadly because the voters felt that US citizenship and lawfullness should be presumptions, rather than something you had to prove in order to enjoy your rights as a citizen. For an immigration agent, this is really tough. You have to identify unauthorized immigrants in an environment where you can't just require lawful citizens to carry ID or proof of citizenship. You legally can't arrest or (more than briefly) detain a US citizen for failure to carry citizenship documents. You have to walk on eggshells even with actual unauthorized immigrants, to avoid violating the law. And our proof-of-identity document systems are deliberately decentralized and unreliable, so you can't just check a master database. It's a tough problem! But that's the way the cookie crumbles. We designed our society to make this kind of "papers please" enforcement difficult, which means that immigration enforcement needs to be smarter and more savvy, or else we need to actually change the laws. What ICE and CBP are trying to do now is just to ignore the law, and that doesn't work. Citizens' built this law to protect their rights; you can't just take away those rights because CBP have a tough job.
  - refurb 1y ago
    Nobody is saying citizens need to carry papers. My only point is that when a deportation order shows a name and face, people can still produce fraudulent documents showing they are a citizen. It’s not a uniquely American problem.
    - habinero 1y ago
      6,000 supposed papers for a pool of 5 million immigrants seems like an extremely minor problem that doesn't require shooting food bank workers to enforce.