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That’s not true at all. If the computer says you’re in the US illegally, but you have documents that say you are a US citizen, then you are put in custody unti

by refurb 1y ago

That’s not true at all. If the computer says you’re in the US illegally, but you have documents that say you are a US citizen, then you are put in custody until the discrepancy can be resolved. It really depends on whether or not there is a standing deportation order for that person. If not, then it’s a lengthy process where you appear in front of a judge who may release you (yes, low risk aliens are still being released) or held in custody until the trial is held. If you have a standing deportation order, and your identity is confirmed, then yes, you may be deported quite quickly. No due process is being denied. If you have a standing deportation order, you can be deported.

nerdsniper 1y ago
> No due process is being denied. Readers are likely to interpret this generally and it may act as a lightning rod - the statement may need some qualifiers to define what is not denying due process.
- refurb 1y ago
  Ok, I'll revise it to "no due process is regularly being denied".
  - DannyBee 1y ago
    Lawyer here - This is, as far as i know, mostly wrong at this point. If you are an actual citizen, the law basically says they can briefly detain you to verify. Brief here is meant to be like "15 minutes". However, it is now taking weeks or months in some cases. These are clear due process violations, and they are happening regularly now. They also cannot simply ignore authoritative evidence of citizenship because a computer says otherwise, without violating due process (because it affects their ability to have cause). Certainly they can ignore like a printout or something, but if you have a valid passport or real id drivers license (IE something considered authoritative), it's almost certainly a due process violation to ignore it and detain you for weeks anyway based on a facial recognition match.
    - refurb 1y ago
      Are you an immigration lawyer? Sure if you produce some secure form of proof that has no indication of being fraudulent there is no cause to detain. But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself. If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them.
      - DannyBee 1y ago
        "Are you an immigration lawyer?" No, but not sure it matters? "But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself." Of US citizens being detained? It 100% is not. The propublica article below gives an example of a citizen being detained, twice, after providing a valid real id from alabama, in their own name. "If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them." https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice-l-says-wasnt-water-24-hours-rcna224493 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice... is one such case. There are many others. In the end, when they discover they are american citizens, they have often falsified affidavits and indicted them on "assaulting officer" charges. The vast majority of these indictments have been dismissed by judges for lack of any evidence. In case you don't believe that is what happens, here's a case in texas last week where the judge was having none of it, and dismissed just such an indictment after pointing out they were lying repeatedly about their investigations into immigration status, and then lying about how force was used, see: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.1172853522/gov.uscourts.txwd.1172853522.64.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.11... If you want some more stories, here: https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-citizens-arrested-detained-against-will https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
habinero 1y ago
> If the computer says you’re in the US illegally, but you have documents that say you are a US citizen, then you are put in custody until the discrepancy can be resolved. Yeah, this is exactly the problem. It is not, in fact, illegal to be in this country without a visa. It's a purely civil matter. Like, parking ticket level. Hauling citizens (or anyone, really) off the street and holding them for indeterminate amounts of times when they haven't committed any crime is not due process.
- refurb 1y ago
  I think you're confused about civil versus criminal violations. Just because a violation is civil does not mean it can't have serious consequences. JP Morgan was sloppy in it's mortgage approvals contributing to the financial crisis of 2007. Do you think that's not a serious matter? That was entirely a civil, not criminal matter. And overstaying a visa has serious consequences. It's not a fine and you can go on living in the US illegally. You will be deported and receive a 3-10 year ban on re-entry. Reenter again and it's criminal matter. But you're also ignoring the numerous criminal violations that occur with illegal immigration. Illegal entry, reentry after deportation, immigration fraud, using fraudulent documents, human trafficking, recieving social services reserved for citizens. All of these are criminal violations. And no, investigating a possible civil or criminal matter and detaining people while you conduct your investigation has nothing to do with due process. Police and immigration officials need these limited powers to do their job. Each of these people detained will either be released or stand in front of a judge, which shows they received due process.
  - 20after4 1y ago
    That assumes a lot of good faith from the current administration which I am certain that they have not earned. They have repeatedly violated the normal procedures, ignored court orders and even lied to judges. They obviously have contempt for the law so it doesn't make sense to assume that they are following proper procedures.
    - refurb 1y ago

by refurb 1y ago

nerdsniper 1y ago

> No due process is being denied. Readers are likely to interpret this generally and it may act as a lightning rod - the statement may need some qualifiers to define what is not denying due process.

refurb 1y ago
Ok, I'll revise it to "no due process is regularly being denied".
- DannyBee 1y ago
  Lawyer here - This is, as far as i know, mostly wrong at this point. If you are an actual citizen, the law basically says they can briefly detain you to verify. Brief here is meant to be like "15 minutes". However, it is now taking weeks or months in some cases. These are clear due process violations, and they are happening regularly now. They also cannot simply ignore authoritative evidence of citizenship because a computer says otherwise, without violating due process (because it affects their ability to have cause). Certainly they can ignore like a printout or something, but if you have a valid passport or real id drivers license (IE something considered authoritative), it's almost certainly a due process violation to ignore it and detain you for weeks anyway based on a facial recognition match.
  - refurb 1y ago
    Are you an immigration lawyer? Sure if you produce some secure form of proof that has no indication of being fraudulent there is no cause to detain. But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself. If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them.
    - DannyBee 1y ago
      "Are you an immigration lawyer?" No, but not sure it matters? "But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself." Of US citizens being detained? It 100% is not. The propublica article below gives an example of a citizen being detained, twice, after providing a valid real id from alabama, in their own name. "If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them." https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice-l-says-wasnt-water-24-hours-rcna224493 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice... is one such case. There are many others. In the end, when they discover they are american citizens, they have often falsified affidavits and indicted them on "assaulting officer" charges. The vast majority of these indictments have been dismissed by judges for lack of any evidence. In case you don't believe that is what happens, here's a case in texas last week where the judge was having none of it, and dismissed just such an indictment after pointing out they were lying repeatedly about their investigations into immigration status, and then lying about how force was used, see: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.1172853522/gov.uscourts.txwd.1172853522.64.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.11... If you want some more stories, here: https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-citizens-arrested-detained-against-will https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...

habinero 1y ago

> If the computer says you’re in the US illegally, but you have documents that say you are a US citizen, then you are put in custody until the discrepancy can be resolved. Yeah, this is exactly the problem. It is not, in fact, illegal to be in this country without a visa. It's a purely civil matter. Like, parking ticket level. Hauling citizens (or anyone, really) off the street and holding them for indeterminate amounts of times when they haven't committed any crime is not due process.

refurb 1y ago
I think you're confused about civil versus criminal violations. Just because a violation is civil does not mean it can't have serious consequences. JP Morgan was sloppy in it's mortgage approvals contributing to the financial crisis of 2007. Do you think that's not a serious matter? That was entirely a civil, not criminal matter. And overstaying a visa has serious consequences. It's not a fine and you can go on living in the US illegally. You will be deported and receive a 3-10 year ban on re-entry. Reenter again and it's criminal matter. But you're also ignoring the numerous criminal violations that occur with illegal immigration. Illegal entry, reentry after deportation, immigration fraud, using fraudulent documents, human trafficking, recieving social services reserved for citizens. All of these are criminal violations. And no, investigating a possible civil or criminal matter and detaining people while you conduct your investigation has nothing to do with due process. Police and immigration officials need these limited powers to do their job. Each of these people detained will either be released or stand in front of a judge, which shows they received due process.
- 20after4 1y ago
  That assumes a lot of good faith from the current administration which I am certain that they have not earned. They have repeatedly violated the normal procedures, ignored court orders and even lied to judges. They obviously have contempt for the law so it doesn't make sense to assume that they are following proper procedures.
  - refurb 1y ago