3 ms·

> So say you're a C++ developer, contributed to APT over the years, see all of it linked to the C++ community which you are part of too, and someone wants to st

by dataflow 11mo ago

> So say you're a C++ developer, contributed to APT over the years, see all of it linked to the C++ community which you are part of too, and someone wants to start migrating parts of it to Rust/$NewLang. I think it might sometimes affect more for these people than just the code, might even be "attacking" (strong word perhaps) their sense of identity, for better or worse. How is language relevant here? If someone just rewrote it in the same language instead of a different one, do you feel the reaction would be significantly better?

jurschreuder 11mo ago
This is really a Rust specific thing, since so many C++ projects were 1-on-1 translated to Rust only changing the licence. Rust has been the tool of choice for stealing GPL3 open source projects where some people have spent all their free time on at some point in their life.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- dralley 11mo ago
  Rewriting software is not "stealing" it. That is an absurd framing, and one that seems akin to the arguments employed against FOSS software in the first place back in the 1980s and 1990s. In your view, was writing a BIOS re-implementation from scratch "stealing" from IBM? Are all of the vaguely Unix-compatible operating systems "stealing" from Unix (ATT/Bell)? Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer?
  - dataflow 11mo ago
    I don't think they mean stealing in a legal/ownership sense, but stealing in the "I can no longer say this is my project" (control/intellectual/credit) sense. > Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer? This has nothing to do with free time. It has to do with the fact that the former actually went through a ton of pain to get the project from its original conception and past bugs & design flaws into its current useful state, and the latter is merely translating the solution right in front of them. And not only is the latter going to deprive the former of the ability to even say "this is my project" (despite them having spent years or decades on its design etc.), but they're also probably going to be able to take the whole thing in a different direction, effectively leaving the original author behind. Whether you feel this is a good or a bad thing for society aside, it should be obvious why this could be genuinely upsetting in some situations.
    - dralley 11mo ago
      Sure, it's upsetting. IBM was upset about BIOS being cloned, Bell got upset about Unix being cloned, Oracle got upset about the JDK being cloned, etc. Many of them were upset enough to engage in decade-long lawsuits. But we'd ultimately be in a much worse place if "avoiding making original creators upset" was the primary factor in development, over things like compatibility, bugs, performance, security etc. I happen to like living in a world where Pipewire can just be a drop in replacement for PulseAudio that can implement the same APIs and do everything that PulseAudio does but better. Or where I can play my games on Linux because Valve re-implemented DirectX and all the Windows platform libraries. Or where there are half a dozen "vim" clones to pick from if I want to. If there are broad, tangible benefits to rewriting a piece of software, then it ought to be rewritten, hurt feelings nonwithstanding. I don't really understand the argument that the original author gets deprived of anything by a piece of free software being rewritten, certainly not credit. Obviously stealing the name would be a dick move and maybe open you up to legal action but that's not really what happens 99.99% of the time.
      - dataflow 11mo ago
        The difference is in the cases you mention these are massive companies with plenty of money simply trying to protect their revenue streams, whereas here we're talking about open source maintainers that are often doing this for the sake of their love for the project and the users, and getting very little other than recognition or ability to influence the project in return. It's not like you're talking about making a billionaire make a million less than he otherwise would. Moreover, often these folks have rare expertise in those subjects, and/or rare willingness to work on them as open side projects. If you tell them this is just something they have to deal with, I wouldn't be surprised if you also remove some of the incentives folks have to keep contributing to OSS voluntarily in the first place. Very little money, and massive risk of losing control, recognition, etc. even if you "succeed"... how many people are still going to bother? And then you get shocked, shocked that OSS is losing to proprietary software and dying.
        dralley 11mo ago

jurschreuder 11mo ago

This is really a Rust specific thing, since so many C++ projects were 1-on-1 translated to Rust only changing the licence. Rust has been the tool of choice for stealing GPL3 open source projects where some people have spent all their free time on at some point in their life.

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
dralley 11mo ago
Rewriting software is not "stealing" it. That is an absurd framing, and one that seems akin to the arguments employed against FOSS software in the first place back in the 1980s and 1990s. In your view, was writing a BIOS re-implementation from scratch "stealing" from IBM? Are all of the vaguely Unix-compatible operating systems "stealing" from Unix (ATT/Bell)? Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer?
- dataflow 11mo ago
  I don't think they mean stealing in a legal/ownership sense, but stealing in the "I can no longer say this is my project" (control/intellectual/credit) sense. > Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer? This has nothing to do with free time. It has to do with the fact that the former actually went through a ton of pain to get the project from its original conception and past bugs & design flaws into its current useful state, and the latter is merely translating the solution right in front of them. And not only is the latter going to deprive the former of the ability to even say "this is my project" (despite them having spent years or decades on its design etc.), but they're also probably going to be able to take the whole thing in a different direction, effectively leaving the original author behind. Whether you feel this is a good or a bad thing for society aside, it should be obvious why this could be genuinely upsetting in some situations.
  - dralley 11mo ago
    Sure, it's upsetting. IBM was upset about BIOS being cloned, Bell got upset about Unix being cloned, Oracle got upset about the JDK being cloned, etc. Many of them were upset enough to engage in decade-long lawsuits. But we'd ultimately be in a much worse place if "avoiding making original creators upset" was the primary factor in development, over things like compatibility, bugs, performance, security etc. I happen to like living in a world where Pipewire can just be a drop in replacement for PulseAudio that can implement the same APIs and do everything that PulseAudio does but better. Or where I can play my games on Linux because Valve re-implemented DirectX and all the Windows platform libraries. Or where there are half a dozen "vim" clones to pick from if I want to. If there are broad, tangible benefits to rewriting a piece of software, then it ought to be rewritten, hurt feelings nonwithstanding. I don't really understand the argument that the original author gets deprived of anything by a piece of free software being rewritten, certainly not credit. Obviously stealing the name would be a dick move and maybe open you up to legal action but that's not really what happens 99.99% of the time.
    - dataflow 11mo ago
      The difference is in the cases you mention these are massive companies with plenty of money simply trying to protect their revenue streams, whereas here we're talking about open source maintainers that are often doing this for the sake of their love for the project and the users, and getting very little other than recognition or ability to influence the project in return. It's not like you're talking about making a billionaire make a million less than he otherwise would. Moreover, often these folks have rare expertise in those subjects, and/or rare willingness to work on them as open side projects. If you tell them this is just something they have to deal with, I wouldn't be surprised if you also remove some of the incentives folks have to keep contributing to OSS voluntarily in the first place. Very little money, and massive risk of losing control, recognition, etc. even if you "succeed"... how many people are still going to bother? And then you get shocked, shocked that OSS is losing to proprietary software and dying.
      - dralley 11mo ago