6 ms·

One can talk about about the technical side of writing a code formatter, but what about the ethical side? Automatically formatted code looks kind of okay but ne

by cjfd 11mo ago

One can talk about about the technical side of writing a code formatter, but what about the ethical side? Automatically formatted code looks kind of okay but never great. Uniformity for the sake of uniformity. It is not a very humanistic.

chaps 11mo ago
This might just be the most HN comment I've ever read.
- noir_lord 11mo ago
  It's certainly an interesting take.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
- 7thpower 11mo ago
  There seem to be a lot of posts that attempt to cast seemingly mundane things through an “ethical” lens and I often wonder what the authors of them must be like in real life.
  - kjs3 11mo ago
    You do not want to get cornered by them at a party talking about their pet peeve.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
o11c 11mo ago
There are 3 major problems with automated code formatters: * Handling of multiple newlines to break sections, or none to group related functions (e.g. a getter with a setter). Sometimes it's even best to move functions around for better grouping. * They don't factor out an expression into a separate variable. * They destroy `git blame`. This one is avoided if the tooling has always enforced formatting.
- layer8 11mo ago
  Regarding the second one, a formatter shouldn’t be changing the AST. At most inserting parentheses/braces/semicolons for clarity, which doesn’t change the AST structurally (or, depending on one‘s definition of “AST”, doesn’t change it at all).
  - o11c 11mo ago
    Perhaps, but it is absolutely relevant. Most of the horrible formatting results are due to the formatter trying really hard when the user really should introduce a variable.
    - layer8 11mo ago
      True, formatters can only do so much. The purpose formatters is not to guarantee readable code, but to guarantee uniform code. Use of a formatter doesn’t relieve a programmer from taking care that the code is readable. But it ensures that everyone is using the same formatting conventions.
- dragonwriter 11mo ago
  > * They don't factor out an expression into a separate variable. That's...not formatting, and there's probably no good deterministic rule for when to do that, anyhow.
- zahlman 11mo ago
  > * They don't factor out an expression into a separate variable. * They implicitly enable people to write deeply nested code that lacks such factoring, without feeling like anything has gone wrong.
- seanssel 11mo ago
  > They destroy `git blame` How is this a problem with auto formatters? This is completely on the person/team, not the tool. Even if the repo doesn’t enforce on pre-commit or something, don’t most formatters have the option to only format lines you’ve actually changed?
mjsir911 11mo ago
yeah, I've come to terms that I mostly do programming-as-an-art and that includes how my code is structured, and I'm on exactly the same page. In pragmatic business environments it's not worth the fuss but I never feel great about anything I make in those kinds of environments anyways, and I always appreciate being able to shine when there's no enforced code formatting.
bartekpacia 11mo ago
weirdest take on code formatting I've ever read imho uniformity of what the code looks like > some single person's opinion it's so satisfying to me when I just run "gofmt" and know the thing is formatted well.
- ncruces 11mo ago
  Gofmt's style is no one's favorite, yet gofmt is everyone's favorite.
- spc476 11mo ago
  If I didn't want opinions, I'd join a cult.
andrewflnr 11mo ago
"Ethics" is overdramatizing it. The goal of a code formatter is not greatness, but adequacy, in a context where the code is a means to an end. They're particularly used in contexts where you may be sharing the project with people who don't care about formatting at all. Forcing me to work in or clean up the messes of my lazy co-workers is also, I would suggest, not very humanistic. Feel free to not use one in your art projects.
wiseowise 11mo ago
Humanistic is bikeshedding for weeks over new lines and “I feel like this is more readable”.
- cjfd 11mo ago
  The bike shedding is optional once one accepts that code written by someone else might look a bit different from ones own. _Some_ conventions are beneficial, and one might discuss those, but one does not have to have complete uniformity. Bike shedding for weeks might happen and is not helpful. On the other side of this argument there are not-so-very-pleasant things as well. A: We follow this-and-this coding convention and we do not like wasting time on discussing it so we follow it to the letter. B: I don't like this small thing that I would like to write differently. A: We follow this-and-this coding convention and we do not like wasting time on discussing it so we follow it to the letter. B: You actually don't follow this-and-this coding convention because you are not following this-and-that rule. A: Yes, that is a change that I liked. One can easily end up with a very old coding convention that only the oldest developer likes so the oldest developer can now be dictator over everybody else.
nkrisc 11mo ago
What is the ethical dilemma presented?
- vbezhenar 11mo ago
  The human might use a carefully selected mix of tabs and spaces to output a picture. And formatter will destroy it, thus destroying artist expression. Compare: #define/**/Q(x,y)r;char*q/* */=y#x","#y")",*p,x=*p%67;} /*-IOCCC2020-*/#include/* */<stdio.h>/*-BBQlock--*/ int(y),x,i,k,Q(s[9<<9/* 12 */];float(f)[3];void(Z) (){*f=r<0?r:-r;f[1]/* 11 1 */=42.5;f[2]=22.5;for (k=0;++k<39;*f/=(k/* 10 2 */%2?k:-k)*6875.5/i) y=f[1+k%2]+=*f;k=/* */f[2];p=s+k/2*86+y ;}int(main)(){p=/* 9 o-------> 3 */s;for(;i<1978;*q >32?k=i++/86-11/* / */,y=(750>r*r+k*k *4)*4+y/2,*p++=/* 8 L 4 */r<44?y?"+0X+0X" "+!"[y]-1:*q++/* 7 5 */:10:*q++)r=-41 +i%86;r=20;for/* 6 */(x=13;(i=3600* --x);*p++="XR"/* */"MOQSUWAY"[x%+ 10]-9,*p+=x/10/* */*41)Z();sscanf (__TIME__,"%d"/* \ / -------+ */":%d:%d",&k,&x ,&i);r=10;for(i/* \ / ------ | */+=(k*60+x)*60;r +18;*p=k%2?*p%2/* \ / ------ | */?59:44:*p>39?59 :39,i=r--?i:i%(+/* \ / ------ | */3600)*12)Z();for (p=s;*p;putchar(k/* X ------ | */%2&&k<14?q="End", printf("%c%c",224|/* __/ \__ | | */(21554>>k&3),"gCS" "gGMX"[k/2]+65),"E"/* / \ / \ | | */"Gh_BrG"[k/2]+64:*p ),++p)k,"#define/**/"/* \__/ \__/ +--+ */"Q(x,y)r;cha""r*q=y#" "x\",\"#y\")\",*p,x=*p"/* */"%67;}/*-IOCCC2020-*/#" "include<stdio.h>/*-BBQl"/* */"ock--*/int(y),x,i,k,Q(") and clang-formatted version: #define /**/ Q(x, y) \ r; \ char *q /* */ = y #x "," #y ")", *p, x = *p % 67; \ } /*-IOCCC2020-*/ #include /* */<stdio.h> /*-BBQlock--*/ int(y),x,i,k,Q(s[9<<9/* 12 */];float(f)[3];void(Z) (){ *f = r < 0 ? r : -r; f[1] /* 11 1 */ = 42.5; f[2] = 22.5; for (k = 0; ++k < 39; *f /= (k /* 10 2 */ % 2 ? k : -k) * 6875.5 / i) y = f[1 + k % 2] += *f; k = /* */ f[2]; p = s + k / 2 * 86 + y;}int(main)(){ p = /* 9 o-------> 3 */ s; for (; i < 1978; *q > 32 ? k = i++ / 86 - 11 /* / */, y = (750 > r * r + k * k * 4) * 4 + y / 2, *p++ = /* 8 L 4 */ r < 44 ? y ? "+0X+0X" "+!"[y] - 1 : *q++ /* 7 5 */ : 10 : *q++) r = -41 + i % 86; r = 20;for/* 6 */(x=13;(i=3600* --x);*p++="XR"/* */"MOQSUWAY"[x%+ 10]-9,*p+=x/10/* */*41) Z(); sscanf(__TIME__, "%d" /* \ / -------+ */ ":%d:%d", &k, &x, &i); r = 10; for (i /* \ / ------ | */ += (k * 60 + x) * 60; r + 18; *p = k % 2 ? *p % 2 /* \ / ------ | */ ? 59 : 44 : *p > 39 ? 59 : 39, i = r-- ? i : i % (+/* \ / ------ | */ 3600) * 12) Z(); for (p = s; *p; putchar(k /* X ------ | */ % 2 &&k < 14 ? q = "End", printf("%c%c", 224 | /* __/ \__ | | */ (21554 >> k & 3), "gCS" "gGMX"[k / 2] + 65), "E" /* / \ / \ | | */ "Gh_BrG"[k / 2] + 64 : *p), ++p)k,"#define/**/"/* \__/ \__/ +--+ */"Q(x,y)r;cha""r*q=y#" "x\",\"#y\")\",*p,x=*p"/* */"%67;}/*-IOCCC2020-*/#" "include<stdio.h>/*-BBQl"/* */"ock--*/int(y),x,i,k,Q(") The beauty is gone!
jibal 11mo ago
You surely forgot the "/s". The uniformity is not merely for the sake of uniformity.
mackeye 11mo ago
semantic code style varies plenty between people; i can often tell who wrote which code, among the members of my research group, even though we format our code. i'd prefer to be recognized by my preference for short lambdas (vs. defs) and partial functions, than my preference to put if statements on one line.
zero_shift 11mo ago
I agree, actually. Humans are visual creatures and they take cues from the visual design of program code: alignment, grouping, density. All these things are used to signify meaning in product design, including digital design. But we are not allowed to "design" source code.
dredmorbius 11mo ago
Ethical, or aesthetic? Both are branches of philosophy, but rather distinct from one another.
tom_ 11mo ago
Interesting comment. I always saw the formatting aspect as the sort of drudgery the computer could do for me. (As a bonus, it will always do it completely consistently.)

by cjfd 11mo ago

chaps 11mo ago

This might just be the most HN comment I've ever read.

noir_lord 11mo ago
It's certainly an interesting take.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
7thpower 11mo ago
There seem to be a lot of posts that attempt to cast seemingly mundane things through an “ethical” lens and I often wonder what the authors of them must be like in real life.
- kjs3 11mo ago
  You do not want to get cornered by them at a party talking about their pet peeve.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]

o11c 11mo ago

There are 3 major problems with automated code formatters: * Handling of multiple newlines to break sections, or none to group related functions (e.g. a getter with a setter). Sometimes it's even best to move functions around for better grouping. * They don't factor out an expression into a separate variable. * They destroy `git blame`. This one is avoided if the tooling has always enforced formatting.

layer8 11mo ago
Regarding the second one, a formatter shouldn’t be changing the AST. At most inserting parentheses/braces/semicolons for clarity, which doesn’t change the AST structurally (or, depending on one‘s definition of “AST”, doesn’t change it at all).
- o11c 11mo ago
  Perhaps, but it is absolutely relevant. Most of the horrible formatting results are due to the formatter trying really hard when the user really should introduce a variable.
  - layer8 11mo ago
    True, formatters can only do so much. The purpose formatters is not to guarantee readable code, but to guarantee uniform code. Use of a formatter doesn’t relieve a programmer from taking care that the code is readable. But it ensures that everyone is using the same formatting conventions.
dragonwriter 11mo ago
> * They don't factor out an expression into a separate variable. That's...not formatting, and there's probably no good deterministic rule for when to do that, anyhow.
zahlman 11mo ago
> * They don't factor out an expression into a separate variable. * They implicitly enable people to write deeply nested code that lacks such factoring, without feeling like anything has gone wrong.
seanssel 11mo ago
> They destroy `git blame` How is this a problem with auto formatters? This is completely on the person/team, not the tool. Even if the repo doesn’t enforce on pre-commit or something, don’t most formatters have the option to only format lines you’ve actually changed?

mjsir911 11mo ago

yeah, I've come to terms that I mostly do programming-as-an-art and that includes how my code is structured, and I'm on exactly the same page. In pragmatic business environments it's not worth the fuss but I never feel great about anything I make in those kinds of environments anyways, and I always appreciate being able to shine when there's no enforced code formatting.

bartekpacia 11mo ago

weirdest take on code formatting I've ever read imho uniformity of what the code looks like > some single person's opinion it's so satisfying to me when I just run "gofmt" and know the thing is formatted well.

ncruces 11mo ago
Gofmt's style is no one's favorite, yet gofmt is everyone's favorite.
spc476 11mo ago
If I didn't want opinions, I'd join a cult.

andrewflnr 11mo ago

"Ethics" is overdramatizing it. The goal of a code formatter is not greatness, but adequacy, in a context where the code is a means to an end. They're particularly used in contexts where you may be sharing the project with people who don't care about formatting at all. Forcing me to work in or clean up the messes of my lazy co-workers is also, I would suggest, not very humanistic. Feel free to not use one in your art projects.

wiseowise 11mo ago

Humanistic is bikeshedding for weeks over new lines and “I feel like this is more readable”.

cjfd 11mo ago
The bike shedding is optional once one accepts that code written by someone else might look a bit different from ones own. _Some_ conventions are beneficial, and one might discuss those, but one does not have to have complete uniformity. Bike shedding for weeks might happen and is not helpful. On the other side of this argument there are not-so-very-pleasant things as well. A: We follow this-and-this coding convention and we do not like wasting time on discussing it so we follow it to the letter. B: I don't like this small thing that I would like to write differently. A: We follow this-and-this coding convention and we do not like wasting time on discussing it so we follow it to the letter. B: You actually don't follow this-and-this coding convention because you are not following this-and-that rule. A: Yes, that is a change that I liked. One can easily end up with a very old coding convention that only the oldest developer likes so the oldest developer can now be dictator over everybody else.

nkrisc 11mo ago

What is the ethical dilemma presented?

vbezhenar 11mo ago
The human might use a carefully selected mix of tabs and spaces to output a picture. And formatter will destroy it, thus destroying artist expression. Compare: #define/**/Q(x,y)r;char*q/* */=y#x","#y")",*p,x=*p%67;} /*-IOCCC2020-*/#include/* */<stdio.h>/*-BBQlock--*/ int(y),x,i,k,Q(s[9<<9/* 12 */];float(f)[3];void(Z) (){*f=r<0?r:-r;f[1]/* 11 1 */=42.5;f[2]=22.5;for (k=0;++k<39;*f/=(k/* 10 2 */%2?k:-k)*6875.5/i) y=f[1+k%2]+=*f;k=/* */f[2];p=s+k/2*86+y ;}int(main)(){p=/* 9 o-------> 3 */s;for(;i<1978;*q >32?k=i++/86-11/* / */,y=(750>r*r+k*k *4)*4+y/2,*p++=/* 8 L 4 */r<44?y?"+0X+0X" "+!"[y]-1:*q++/* 7 5 */:10:*q++)r=-41 +i%86;r=20;for/* 6 */(x=13;(i=3600* --x);*p++="XR"/* */"MOQSUWAY"[x%+ 10]-9,*p+=x/10/* */*41)Z();sscanf (__TIME__,"%d"/* \ / -------+ */":%d:%d",&k,&x ,&i);r=10;for(i/* \ / ------ | */+=(k*60+x)*60;r +18;*p=k%2?*p%2/* \ / ------ | */?59:44:*p>39?59 :39,i=r--?i:i%(+/* \ / ------ | */3600)*12)Z();for (p=s;*p;putchar(k/* X ------ | */%2&&k<14?q="End", printf("%c%c",224|/* __/ \__ | | */(21554>>k&3),"gCS" "gGMX"[k/2]+65),"E"/* / \ / \ | | */"Gh_BrG"[k/2]+64:*p ),++p)k,"#define/**/"/* \__/ \__/ +--+ */"Q(x,y)r;cha""r*q=y#" "x\",\"#y\")\",*p,x=*p"/* */"%67;}/*-IOCCC2020-*/#" "include<stdio.h>/*-BBQl"/* */"ock--*/int(y),x,i,k,Q(") and clang-formatted version: #define /**/ Q(x, y) \ r; \ char *q /* */ = y #x "," #y ")", *p, x = *p % 67; \ } /*-IOCCC2020-*/ #include /* */<stdio.h> /*-BBQlock--*/ int(y),x,i,k,Q(s[9<<9/* 12 */];float(f)[3];void(Z) (){ *f = r < 0 ? r : -r; f[1] /* 11 1 */ = 42.5; f[2] = 22.5; for (k = 0; ++k < 39; *f /= (k /* 10 2 */ % 2 ? k : -k) * 6875.5 / i) y = f[1 + k % 2] += *f; k = /* */ f[2]; p = s + k / 2 * 86 + y;}int(main)(){ p = /* 9 o-------> 3 */ s; for (; i < 1978; *q > 32 ? k = i++ / 86 - 11 /* / */, y = (750 > r * r + k * k * 4) * 4 + y / 2, *p++ = /* 8 L 4 */ r < 44 ? y ? "+0X+0X" "+!"[y] - 1 : *q++ /* 7 5 */ : 10 : *q++) r = -41 + i % 86; r = 20;for/* 6 */(x=13;(i=3600* --x);*p++="XR"/* */"MOQSUWAY"[x%+ 10]-9,*p+=x/10/* */*41) Z(); sscanf(__TIME__, "%d" /* \ / -------+ */ ":%d:%d", &k, &x, &i); r = 10; for (i /* \ / ------ | */ += (k * 60 + x) * 60; r + 18; *p = k % 2 ? *p % 2 /* \ / ------ | */ ? 59 : 44 : *p > 39 ? 59 : 39, i = r-- ? i : i % (+/* \ / ------ | */ 3600) * 12) Z(); for (p = s; *p; putchar(k /* X ------ | */ % 2 &&k < 14 ? q = "End", printf("%c%c", 224 | /* __/ \__ | | */ (21554 >> k & 3), "gCS" "gGMX"[k / 2] + 65), "E" /* / \ / \ | | */ "Gh_BrG"[k / 2] + 64 : *p), ++p)k,"#define/**/"/* \__/ \__/ +--+ */"Q(x,y)r;cha""r*q=y#" "x\",\"#y\")\",*p,x=*p"/* */"%67;}/*-IOCCC2020-*/#" "include<stdio.h>/*-BBQl"/* */"ock--*/int(y),x,i,k,Q(") The beauty is gone!

jibal 11mo ago

You surely forgot the "/s". The uniformity is not merely for the sake of uniformity.

mackeye 11mo ago

semantic code style varies plenty between people; i can often tell who wrote which code, among the members of my research group, even though we format our code. i'd prefer to be recognized by my preference for short lambdas (vs. defs) and partial functions, than my preference to put if statements on one line.

zero_shift 11mo ago

I agree, actually. Humans are visual creatures and they take cues from the visual design of program code: alignment, grouping, density. All these things are used to signify meaning in product design, including digital design. But we are not allowed to "design" source code.

dredmorbius 11mo ago

Ethical, or aesthetic? Both are branches of philosophy, but rather distinct from one another.

tom_ 11mo ago

Interesting comment. I always saw the formatting aspect as the sort of drudgery the computer could do for me. (As a bonus, it will always do it completely consistently.)