4 ms·

It’s more complex than that- initial drafts of the declaration of independence were more explicit about literally covering all people, and even had a rant about

by _yb2s 1y ago

It’s more complex than that- initial drafts of the declaration of independence were more explicit about literally covering all people, and even had a rant about how slavery was unethical, and they compromised by cutting these in order to get enough consensus to make it happen at all. Thomas Jefferson himself was a hypocrite- he wrote a lot about how slavery was wrong and should be ended, all the while owning slaves himself. Anyways, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to nowadays take that philosophy and apply it universally. Just because it was done unfairly and hypocritically in the past is no excuse for us to also be hypocrites nowadays.

pfannkuchen 1y ago
Sorry is ICE going around enslaving Africans? I thought the topic was people being targeted for removal based on looking like a Native American. What does Jefferson’s view on slavery have to do with anything?
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- _yb2s 11mo ago
  The context is the question of if human rights are universal or only for certain privileged groups
  - pfannkuchen 11mo ago
    Those are your personal abstraction boundaries. It is a perfectly coherent set of positions to oppose enslaving humans while at the same time being selective about which humans you allow into your nation. The “founding fathers” factually prohibited non-whites from being citizens of America. So what if they were opposed to slavery or not? Those are entirely different matters, and a position on slavery does not imply anything about a position on “any person on earth can be an American”.
    - TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
      This is not an issue of who is allowed into the country. It is an issue of who has the right to due process to determine whether they are allowed in the country or not. The first point should not apply to everyone, but the second absolutely must. Trusting an un-auditable black box over all other evidence to determine who is allowed in the country is a violation of everyone's human rights.
      - pfannkuchen 11mo ago
        What due process is being skipped? People are arrested all the time when they are innocent, and that is not widely considered to be skipping due process. If they are jailed for a crime without appearing before a judge for example then due process has been skipped, but whether someone has committed a crime requires a judge to check, whereas I imagine whether someone is in the country legally just requires checking some databases. Have citizens been deported by accident? I haven’t seen any reports of that.
        _yb2s 11mo ago
        You seem to be unaware of what is happening right now on the streets- there are thousands of videos all over social media you should spend a few hours watching. Peaceful citizens minding their own business are being terrorized and beaten by unprofessional and violent masked goons at a massive scale. The perpetrators are hiding their identities and often refusing to even look at documents proving someone is a citizen. In the detention centers people are being brutalized- left to sit for days in human shit, diabetics denied insulin, bright lights on 24/7, and food and water provided only as rewards for desires behaviors. Congress is denied their legal right and responsibility to tour the facilities, allowing them to hide human rights abuses. The cruelty and sadism of the tactics used is ratcheting up every week, and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged. Victims have no recourse- the DOJ and legal system are blocking victims from being able to even press charges, allowing these abuses to continue with no recourse. I'm not sure about citizens being deported other than children of non-citizens together with their parents, but they are deporting huge numbers of people here legally on visas, green cards, and valid asylum claims. They revoked visas of some 6,000 college students - mostly for political "wrongthink" and then sent ICE agents after them, when it's actually legal in the USA for them to remain with a revoked student visa as long as they arrived legally, and illegal to detain or deport. They've also arrested and detained hundreds of citizens, that they absolutely knew were citizens, for peaceful protesting and video taping their illegal activities.

by _yb2s 1y ago

pfannkuchen 1y ago

Sorry is ICE going around enslaving Africans? I thought the topic was people being targeted for removal based on looking like a Native American. What does Jefferson’s view on slavery have to do with anything?

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
_yb2s 11mo ago
The context is the question of if human rights are universal or only for certain privileged groups
- pfannkuchen 11mo ago
  Those are your personal abstraction boundaries. It is a perfectly coherent set of positions to oppose enslaving humans while at the same time being selective about which humans you allow into your nation. The “founding fathers” factually prohibited non-whites from being citizens of America. So what if they were opposed to slavery or not? Those are entirely different matters, and a position on slavery does not imply anything about a position on “any person on earth can be an American”.
  - TheCoelacanth 11mo ago
    This is not an issue of who is allowed into the country. It is an issue of who has the right to due process to determine whether they are allowed in the country or not. The first point should not apply to everyone, but the second absolutely must. Trusting an un-auditable black box over all other evidence to determine who is allowed in the country is a violation of everyone's human rights.
    - pfannkuchen 11mo ago
      What due process is being skipped? People are arrested all the time when they are innocent, and that is not widely considered to be skipping due process. If they are jailed for a crime without appearing before a judge for example then due process has been skipped, but whether someone has committed a crime requires a judge to check, whereas I imagine whether someone is in the country legally just requires checking some databases. Have citizens been deported by accident? I haven’t seen any reports of that.
      - _yb2s 11mo ago
        You seem to be unaware of what is happening right now on the streets- there are thousands of videos all over social media you should spend a few hours watching. Peaceful citizens minding their own business are being terrorized and beaten by unprofessional and violent masked goons at a massive scale. The perpetrators are hiding their identities and often refusing to even look at documents proving someone is a citizen. In the detention centers people are being brutalized- left to sit for days in human shit, diabetics denied insulin, bright lights on 24/7, and food and water provided only as rewards for desires behaviors. Congress is denied their legal right and responsibility to tour the facilities, allowing them to hide human rights abuses. The cruelty and sadism of the tactics used is ratcheting up every week, and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged. Victims have no recourse- the DOJ and legal system are blocking victims from being able to even press charges, allowing these abuses to continue with no recourse. I'm not sure about citizens being deported other than children of non-citizens together with their parents, but they are deporting huge numbers of people here legally on visas, green cards, and valid asylum claims. They revoked visas of some 6,000 college students - mostly for political "wrongthink" and then sent ICE agents after them, when it's actually legal in the USA for them to remain with a revoked student visa as long as they arrived legally, and illegal to detain or deport. They've also arrested and detained hundreds of citizens, that they absolutely knew were citizens, for peaceful protesting and video taping their illegal activities.