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> Interestingly, I wonder if the debates over the addition of C++, Python, and Perl to the base system language set were this acrimonious. I think any projects

> Interestingly, I wonder if the debates over the addition of C++, Python, and Perl to the base system language set were this acrimonious. I think any projects that are run by people that see themselves as "X-people" (like Python-people, Perl-people) always have a bit "ick" reaction to new languages being added to projects they might see as part of a language's community. So say you're a C++ developer, contributed to APT over the years, see all of it linked to the C++ community which you are part of too, and someone wants to start migrating parts of it to Rust/$NewLang. I think it might sometimes affect more for these people than just the code, might even be "attacking" (strong word perhaps) their sense of identity, for better or worse.

julian-klode 1y ago
If anyone sees that horrible mess of hacks around pre-STL C++'s lacks of namespace in combination with latest C++ features as part of the C++ community I'd be very surprised :D If APT were a hardcore C++ project surely we'd have like adopted namespaces everywhere by now.
jenadine 1y ago
I was (and am still) a C++ person. But I somehow became also a Rust person. I am sure some people felt attacked, but imho Rust has most of the characteristics that made C++ a good language and that's why I "embraced" Rust rather than felt attacked.
- OneDeuxTriSeiGo 1y ago
  Yeah rust is not C++ but it really compliments C++ well. Each has their niche and tbh I see them converging into the two kings of the systems space rather than actually competing with each other.
zahlman 1y ago
> I think any projects that are run by people that see themselves as "X-people" (like Python-people, Perl-people) always have a bit "ick" reaction to new languages being added to projects they might see as part of a language's community. I would say that Pythonistas are quite accustomed to "(other) languages being added" to the Python ecosystem. After all, NumPy relies on Fortran, as well as C. Asserting that kind of "ownership" over code seems rather distasteful to me. Maybe there would be less acrimony if developers got paid for it somehow.
- embedding-shape 1y ago
  Yeah, maybe Python was a bad example, didn't really think specifically about the languages I made as examples, they were just examples with the hope of making it easier to understand what exactly I was talking about. Some communities indeed are better at embracing multiple languages, Python, JavaScript and Java/JVM comes to mind, where it isn't uncommon to call out to other languages.
dataflow 1y ago
> So say you're a C++ developer, contributed to APT over the years, see all of it linked to the C++ community which you are part of too, and someone wants to start migrating parts of it to Rust/$NewLang. I think it might sometimes affect more for these people than just the code, might even be "attacking" (strong word perhaps) their sense of identity, for better or worse. How is language relevant here? If someone just rewrote it in the same language instead of a different one, do you feel the reaction would be significantly better?
- jurschreuder 1y ago
  This is really a Rust specific thing, since so many C++ projects were 1-on-1 translated to Rust only changing the licence. Rust has been the tool of choice for stealing GPL3 open source projects where some people have spent all their free time on at some point in their life.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - dralley 1y ago
    Rewriting software is not "stealing" it. That is an absurd framing, and one that seems akin to the arguments employed against FOSS software in the first place back in the 1980s and 1990s. In your view, was writing a BIOS re-implementation from scratch "stealing" from IBM? Are all of the vaguely Unix-compatible operating systems "stealing" from Unix (ATT/Bell)? Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer?
    - dataflow 1y ago
      I don't think they mean stealing in a legal/ownership sense, but stealing in the "I can no longer say this is my project" (control/intellectual/credit) sense. > Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer? This has nothing to do with free time. It has to do with the fact that the former actually went through a ton of pain to get the project from its original conception and past bugs & design flaws into its current useful state, and the latter is merely translating the solution right in front of them. And not only is the latter going to deprive the former of the ability to even say "this is my project" (despite them having spent years or decades on its design etc.), but they're also probably going to be able to take the whole thing in a different direction, effectively leaving the original author behind. Whether you feel this is a good or a bad thing for society aside, it should be obvious why this could be genuinely upsetting in some situations.

julian-klode 1y ago

If anyone sees that horrible mess of hacks around pre-STL C++'s lacks of namespace in combination with latest C++ features as part of the C++ community I'd be very surprised :D If APT were a hardcore C++ project surely we'd have like adopted namespaces everywhere by now.

jenadine 1y ago

I was (and am still) a C++ person. But I somehow became also a Rust person. I am sure some people felt attacked, but imho Rust has most of the characteristics that made C++ a good language and that's why I "embraced" Rust rather than felt attacked.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 1y ago
Yeah rust is not C++ but it really compliments C++ well. Each has their niche and tbh I see them converging into the two kings of the systems space rather than actually competing with each other.

zahlman 1y ago

> I think any projects that are run by people that see themselves as "X-people" (like Python-people, Perl-people) always have a bit "ick" reaction to new languages being added to projects they might see as part of a language's community. I would say that Pythonistas are quite accustomed to "(other) languages being added" to the Python ecosystem. After all, NumPy relies on Fortran, as well as C. Asserting that kind of "ownership" over code seems rather distasteful to me. Maybe there would be less acrimony if developers got paid for it somehow.

embedding-shape 1y ago
Yeah, maybe Python was a bad example, didn't really think specifically about the languages I made as examples, they were just examples with the hope of making it easier to understand what exactly I was talking about. Some communities indeed are better at embracing multiple languages, Python, JavaScript and Java/JVM comes to mind, where it isn't uncommon to call out to other languages.

dataflow 1y ago

> So say you're a C++ developer, contributed to APT over the years, see all of it linked to the C++ community which you are part of too, and someone wants to start migrating parts of it to Rust/$NewLang. I think it might sometimes affect more for these people than just the code, might even be "attacking" (strong word perhaps) their sense of identity, for better or worse. How is language relevant here? If someone just rewrote it in the same language instead of a different one, do you feel the reaction would be significantly better?

jurschreuder 1y ago
This is really a Rust specific thing, since so many C++ projects were 1-on-1 translated to Rust only changing the licence. Rust has been the tool of choice for stealing GPL3 open source projects where some people have spent all their free time on at some point in their life.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- dralley 1y ago
  Rewriting software is not "stealing" it. That is an absurd framing, and one that seems akin to the arguments employed against FOSS software in the first place back in the 1980s and 1990s. In your view, was writing a BIOS re-implementation from scratch "stealing" from IBM? Are all of the vaguely Unix-compatible operating systems "stealing" from Unix (ATT/Bell)? Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer?
  - dataflow 1y ago
    I don't think they mean stealing in a legal/ownership sense, but stealing in the "I can no longer say this is my project" (control/intellectual/credit) sense. > Why is the "free time" of the original developer more sacrosanct than the "free time" of the re-implementer? This has nothing to do with free time. It has to do with the fact that the former actually went through a ton of pain to get the project from its original conception and past bugs & design flaws into its current useful state, and the latter is merely translating the solution right in front of them. And not only is the latter going to deprive the former of the ability to even say "this is my project" (despite them having spent years or decades on its design etc.), but they're also probably going to be able to take the whole thing in a different direction, effectively leaving the original author behind. Whether you feel this is a good or a bad thing for society aside, it should be obvious why this could be genuinely upsetting in some situations.