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> I think you could argue that modern high-yield EULV is a wholly Taiwanese invention It is not. EUV was literally invented in America in government funded res

> I think you could argue that modern high-yield EULV is a wholly Taiwanese invention It is not. EUV was literally invented in America in government funded research, and licensed to ASML. Taiwan (TSMC) purchased ASML machines. > For all of America's DARPA prowess, Intel couldn't even play second-fiddle to TSMC's worst fab nodes. These have nothing to do with each other. One is a private corporation that made a strategic mistake. The other is a government agency.

bigyabai 1y ago
> EUV was literally invented in America Modern, high-yield EULV was not. The CRADA efforts did not produce high-yield dies, nor did it get beyond theorizing modern nodes. > These have nothing to do with each other Maybe that's how you wish things were. But we have two admins back-to-back scraping Intel's corpse off the pavement.
- ac29 1y ago
  The only company making EUVL machines is ASML. The EUV light source was invented in the US and according to wikipedia is used under licence by ASML. If you have a source that says "modern, high-yield EULV" does not use ASML machines, or does not use the laser pulsed tin plasma light source invented in the US, I'd be interested
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    The EUV light source is just one step of the manufacturing process. There's also maintenance, preprod, doping, testing and packaging steps that are all customary to specific fabs and difficult to optimize at-scale. A big part of why Intel wasn't an EUV early adopter was the complexity compared to DUV. Claiming that America invented modern high-yield EUV in the lab is like saying Germany invented the Ferrari because Italy imported their steel presses to manufacture it. Not only are you being pedantic, you're not using pedantry to make a distinction that anyone will respect. Chipmaking is not a pushbutton process with line-replaceable units. This kind of reductive reasoning is what puts detail-oriented cultures ahead of profit-oriented ones.

bigyabai 1y ago

> EUV was literally invented in America Modern, high-yield EULV was not. The CRADA efforts did not produce high-yield dies, nor did it get beyond theorizing modern nodes. > These have nothing to do with each other Maybe that's how you wish things were. But we have two admins back-to-back scraping Intel's corpse off the pavement.

ac29 1y ago
The only company making EUVL machines is ASML. The EUV light source was invented in the US and according to wikipedia is used under licence by ASML. If you have a source that says "modern, high-yield EULV" does not use ASML machines, or does not use the laser pulsed tin plasma light source invented in the US, I'd be interested
- bigyabai 1y ago
  The EUV light source is just one step of the manufacturing process. There's also maintenance, preprod, doping, testing and packaging steps that are all customary to specific fabs and difficult to optimize at-scale. A big part of why Intel wasn't an EUV early adopter was the complexity compared to DUV. Claiming that America invented modern high-yield EUV in the lab is like saying Germany invented the Ferrari because Italy imported their steel presses to manufacture it. Not only are you being pedantic, you're not using pedantry to make a distinction that anyone will respect. Chipmaking is not a pushbutton process with line-replaceable units. This kind of reductive reasoning is what puts detail-oriented cultures ahead of profit-oriented ones.