4 ms·

I have been thinking, if the "generate soft xray for lithography by particle accelerators" is remotely feasible as being claimed by substrate. I remember readin

I have been thinking, if the "generate soft xray for lithography by particle accelerators" is remotely feasible as being claimed by substrate. I remember reading some chineese startup / university also trying to do so. ASML is best position to execute this. They have the money, cashflow and talent, R&D culture all available. ASML may very well be the one actually doing this.

SilverElfin 11mo ago
It’s possible ASML is the best to do this. But the fundamental research behind ASML’s modern tech is actually from a DARPA project if you go back far enough. While certainly ASML did years of work to bring the tech to commercial readiness, I wonder if they’re able to completely rethink their approach or if they’re too invested in one way of doing things.
- embedding-shape 11mo ago
  > But the fundamental research behind ASML’s modern tech is actually from a DARPA project if you go back far enough Trying to trace things like this is a fools errand though. Trace things back further than that, the microscope was invented in Europe, and further back the magnifying glass somewhere in the Middle East/Mediterranean. You'll just stop wherever it's convenient for the point you're trying to make. Ultimately, what was available + what was known was put into practice by ASML and they're the ones best at executing that thing right now today, and some things they're the only ones able to too, which isn't very too common. But I guess only time will tell if they can use whatever they've built and make it into something even more.
  - bigyabai 11mo ago
    FWIW, I think you could argue that modern high-yield EULV is a wholly Taiwanese invention. For all of America's DARPA prowess, Intel couldn't even play second-fiddle to TSMC's worst fab nodes.
    - SilverElfin 11mo ago
      > I think you could argue that modern high-yield EULV is a wholly Taiwanese invention It is not. EUV was literally invented in America in government funded research, and licensed to ASML. Taiwan (TSMC) purchased ASML machines. > For all of America's DARPA prowess, Intel couldn't even play second-fiddle to TSMC's worst fab nodes. These have nothing to do with each other. One is a private corporation that made a strategic mistake. The other is a government agency.
      - bigyabai 11mo ago
        > EUV was literally invented in America Modern, high-yield EULV was not. The CRADA efforts did not produce high-yield dies, nor did it get beyond theorizing modern nodes. > These have nothing to do with each other Maybe that's how you wish things were. But we have two admins back-to-back scraping Intel's corpse off the pavement.
        ac29 11mo ago
        The only company making EUVL machines is ASML. The EUV light source was invented in the US and according to wikipedia is used under licence by ASML. If you have a source that says "modern, high-yield EULV" does not use ASML machines, or does not use the laser pulsed tin plasma light source invented in the US, I'd be interested
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        The EUV light source is just one step of the manufacturing process. There's also maintenance, preprod, doping, testing and packaging steps that are all customary to specific fabs and difficult to optimize at-scale. A big part of why Intel wasn't an EUV early adopter was the complexity compared to DUV. Claiming that America invented modern high-yield EUV in the lab is like saying Germany invented the Ferrari because Italy imported their steel presses to manufacture it. Not only are you being pedantic, you're not using pedantry to make a distinction that anyone will respect. Chipmaking is not a pushbutton process with line-replaceable units. This kind of reductive reasoning is what puts detail-oriented cultures ahead of profit-oriented ones.
  - SilverElfin 11mo ago
    > Trying to trace things like this is a fools errand though. Trace things back further than that, the microscope was invented in Europe Regardless of what other prior inventions it depended on, EUV technology itself was invented in the US, and we know that factually - it’s not a fool’s errand. ASML literally approached the US government for a chance to license the technology. This was in the late 90s. That’s not to take away the work ASML has done since then to make it commercially viable through their machines (or TSMC in implementing and integrating ASML machines).
    - yread 11mo ago
      Note that in the 90s EUV was about as mature as fusion that's to say not at all. Not many people believed it could be actually used to make CPUs

SilverElfin 11mo ago

It’s possible ASML is the best to do this. But the fundamental research behind ASML’s modern tech is actually from a DARPA project if you go back far enough. While certainly ASML did years of work to bring the tech to commercial readiness, I wonder if they’re able to completely rethink their approach or if they’re too invested in one way of doing things.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
> But the fundamental research behind ASML’s modern tech is actually from a DARPA project if you go back far enough Trying to trace things like this is a fools errand though. Trace things back further than that, the microscope was invented in Europe, and further back the magnifying glass somewhere in the Middle East/Mediterranean. You'll just stop wherever it's convenient for the point you're trying to make. Ultimately, what was available + what was known was put into practice by ASML and they're the ones best at executing that thing right now today, and some things they're the only ones able to too, which isn't very too common. But I guess only time will tell if they can use whatever they've built and make it into something even more.
- bigyabai 11mo ago
  FWIW, I think you could argue that modern high-yield EULV is a wholly Taiwanese invention. For all of America's DARPA prowess, Intel couldn't even play second-fiddle to TSMC's worst fab nodes.
  - SilverElfin 11mo ago
    > I think you could argue that modern high-yield EULV is a wholly Taiwanese invention It is not. EUV was literally invented in America in government funded research, and licensed to ASML. Taiwan (TSMC) purchased ASML machines. > For all of America's DARPA prowess, Intel couldn't even play second-fiddle to TSMC's worst fab nodes. These have nothing to do with each other. One is a private corporation that made a strategic mistake. The other is a government agency.
    - bigyabai 11mo ago
      > EUV was literally invented in America Modern, high-yield EULV was not. The CRADA efforts did not produce high-yield dies, nor did it get beyond theorizing modern nodes. > These have nothing to do with each other Maybe that's how you wish things were. But we have two admins back-to-back scraping Intel's corpse off the pavement.
      - ac29 11mo ago
        The only company making EUVL machines is ASML. The EUV light source was invented in the US and according to wikipedia is used under licence by ASML. If you have a source that says "modern, high-yield EULV" does not use ASML machines, or does not use the laser pulsed tin plasma light source invented in the US, I'd be interested
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        The EUV light source is just one step of the manufacturing process. There's also maintenance, preprod, doping, testing and packaging steps that are all customary to specific fabs and difficult to optimize at-scale. A big part of why Intel wasn't an EUV early adopter was the complexity compared to DUV. Claiming that America invented modern high-yield EUV in the lab is like saying Germany invented the Ferrari because Italy imported their steel presses to manufacture it. Not only are you being pedantic, you're not using pedantry to make a distinction that anyone will respect. Chipmaking is not a pushbutton process with line-replaceable units. This kind of reductive reasoning is what puts detail-oriented cultures ahead of profit-oriented ones.
- SilverElfin 11mo ago
  > Trying to trace things like this is a fools errand though. Trace things back further than that, the microscope was invented in Europe Regardless of what other prior inventions it depended on, EUV technology itself was invented in the US, and we know that factually - it’s not a fool’s errand. ASML literally approached the US government for a chance to license the technology. This was in the late 90s. That’s not to take away the work ASML has done since then to make it commercially viable through their machines (or TSMC in implementing and integrating ASML machines).
  - yread 11mo ago
    Note that in the 90s EUV was about as mature as fusion that's to say not at all. Not many people believed it could be actually used to make CPUs