4 ms·

I am pretty sure that those machines are not running Debian.

by pezezin 1y ago

stouset 1y ago
And almost certainly not whatever the next stable release of Debian is.
goodpoint 1y ago
You'd be surprised.
- estebank 1y ago
  Even if they are, they are not updating to latest Debian stable.
  - julian-klode 1y ago
    I mean they can't in the first place, because ports only have unstable available
  - kortilla 1y ago
    They try if they are internet connected
tacker2000 1y ago
Why not? How do you know that? Debian is used pretty widely
- dathinab 1y ago
  they might run Debian but not upstream Debian/stable you mainly find that with systems needing certification this are the kind of situations where having a C language spec isn't enough but you instead need a compiler version specific spec of the compiler similar they tend to run the same checkout of the OS with project specific security updates back-ported to it, instead of doing generic system updates (because every single updates needs to be re-certified) but that is such a huge effort that companies don't want to run a full OS at all. Just the kernel and the most minimal choice of packages you really need and not one more binary then that. and they might have picked Debian as a initial source for their packages, kernel etc. but it isn't really Debian anymore
kortilla 1y ago
You would be wrong. People want new software
- pezezin 1y ago
  If we are talking about embedded control systems no, you don't want new software, you want your machine to do what is supposed to do. At my workplace we have some old VME crates running VxWorks, and nobody is gonna update those to the latest Linux distro.
  - kortilla 1y ago
    This is incorrect. Internet connections and 3rd party integrations have changed this view of “the software doesn’t need to change once it leaves the factory”. John Deere, Caterpillar, etc are leaning heavily into the “connected industrial equipment” world. GE engines on airplanes have updatable software and relay telemetry back to GE from flights. The embedded world changed. You just might have missed it if your view is what shipped out before 2010.
    - pezezin 1y ago
      My experience is in big scientific experiments like particle accelerators, I guess other fields are different. Still, my experience is that: 1) The control network is air gapped, any kind of direct Internet connection is very much forbidden. 2) Embedded real-time stuff usually runs on VxWorks or RTEMS, not Linux. If it is Linux, it is an specialized distro like NI Linux. 3) Anything designed in the last 15 years uses ARM. Older systems use PowerPC. Nobody has used Alpha, HPPA, SH4 or m68k in ages. So if you really want to run Debian on it, just go ahead and use Armbian.
      - kortilla 1y ago
        Yes, you are out of touch with what has happened with embedded. Companies love internet connected things, especially big industrial things. It’s absolutely terrible for security but remote visibility into how your 100 ton haul truck is operating via some cloud API is what people like and keep buying. No air gap, just hooked up to a cell phone network with maybe a VPN if you’re lucky. Either way, the kernel is handling packets directly from the Internet and keeping the kernel up to date is critical.

I am pretty sure that those machines are not running Debian.

stouset 1y ago

And almost certainly not whatever the next stable release of Debian is.

goodpoint 1y ago

You'd be surprised.

estebank 1y ago
Even if they are, they are not updating to latest Debian stable.
- julian-klode 1y ago
  I mean they can't in the first place, because ports only have unstable available
- kortilla 1y ago
  They try if they are internet connected

tacker2000 1y ago

Why not? How do you know that? Debian is used pretty widely

dathinab 1y ago
they might run Debian but not upstream Debian/stable you mainly find that with systems needing certification this are the kind of situations where having a C language spec isn't enough but you instead need a compiler version specific spec of the compiler similar they tend to run the same checkout of the OS with project specific security updates back-ported to it, instead of doing generic system updates (because every single updates needs to be re-certified) but that is such a huge effort that companies don't want to run a full OS at all. Just the kernel and the most minimal choice of packages you really need and not one more binary then that. and they might have picked Debian as a initial source for their packages, kernel etc. but it isn't really Debian anymore

kortilla 1y ago

You would be wrong. People want new software

pezezin 1y ago
If we are talking about embedded control systems no, you don't want new software, you want your machine to do what is supposed to do. At my workplace we have some old VME crates running VxWorks, and nobody is gonna update those to the latest Linux distro.
- kortilla 1y ago
  This is incorrect. Internet connections and 3rd party integrations have changed this view of “the software doesn’t need to change once it leaves the factory”. John Deere, Caterpillar, etc are leaning heavily into the “connected industrial equipment” world. GE engines on airplanes have updatable software and relay telemetry back to GE from flights. The embedded world changed. You just might have missed it if your view is what shipped out before 2010.
  - pezezin 1y ago
    My experience is in big scientific experiments like particle accelerators, I guess other fields are different. Still, my experience is that: 1) The control network is air gapped, any kind of direct Internet connection is very much forbidden. 2) Embedded real-time stuff usually runs on VxWorks or RTEMS, not Linux. If it is Linux, it is an specialized distro like NI Linux. 3) Anything designed in the last 15 years uses ARM. Older systems use PowerPC. Nobody has used Alpha, HPPA, SH4 or m68k in ages. So if you really want to run Debian on it, just go ahead and use Armbian.
    - kortilla 1y ago
      Yes, you are out of touch with what has happened with embedded. Companies love internet connected things, especially big industrial things. It’s absolutely terrible for security but remote visibility into how your 100 ton haul truck is operating via some cloud API is what people like and keep buying. No air gap, just hooked up to a cell phone network with maybe a VPN if you’re lucky. Either way, the kernel is handling packets directly from the Internet and keeping the kernel up to date is critical.