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Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? If you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious

Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? If you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious problem. Sure you could get locked up somewhere away from a lawyer for a few days which is terribly inconvenient —- that clearly is happening to British citizens -- but nobody is going to pin you to the ground until you can't breathe. We appear to be getting the benefit of some doubt (unless we have opinions). And if you are white and have an American accent you're going to be ignored entirely anyway. Perhaps carry any paperwork you need, definitely carry any medication you'll need for a few days. As to whether the officer will ignore evidence presented: that is clearly what they are being told to do. There are lawful citizens carrying their papers with them and there's video of an ICE agent mockingly saying "what papers?" Because on the ground it's not about immigration status really, it's about race and white power and sheer numbers of arrests to meet Stephen Miller's quotas.

mattgreenrocks 1y ago
> Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? They've certainly been held in custody, though. Unfortunately, lots of people are going to arrive at a first-hand understanding of the oft-repeated systems adage: "the purpose of a system is what it does."
- exasperaited 1y ago
  She was lying, is what I meant. She is a liar. Re: Stafford Beer, we're beyond that in so many ways —- what in ordinary times might be considered an emergent, unthinking consequence of this system is what it was actually designed to do: the terror and arbitrary quality or even the perception that the USA is hostile to foreigners, is not an accidental, emergent quality of the operation. It's Stephen Miller's intent. If you were to take a truly Stafford Beer approach to this, then you might say the purpose of this system is to desensitise Americans to the arbitrary and/or violent expression of presidential power. But when you combine that with blowing up boats that contain no combatants and could have been interdicted, the use of selective prosecution, and the confidence with which they say, look, that is exactly what we're doing, even that feels like it is pretty close to text, certainly not unconscious subtext.
roywiggins 1y ago
> you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious problem. Sure you could get locked up somewhere away from a lawyer for a few days which is terribly inconvenient This may be statistically true, but it's probably not very good advice. You might equally end up deported, now that they are running everyone through every database looking for things that might make you technically deportable that would never have come up under previous administrations: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g78nj7701o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g78nj7701o You used to be able to get bailed while stuff got sorted out. That has changed. Now they keep you locked up for months, not days. How long are you prepared to hold out before agreeing to be deported despite being in the right? Racial profiling is certainly happening, but anyone can find themselves in this situation if the wrong database pings when they walk through an airport, and once you have been dropped into immigration detention, relying on your ethnicity to get you out is not a sure thing.
- exasperaited 1y ago
  > This may be statistically true, but it's probably not very good advice. Oh it was partly sarcastic ("terribly inconvenient" being something of a Britishism for really quite awful)
jimt1234 1y ago
And Justice Kavanaugh said that even if someone is stopped and question by ICE, all they have to do is prove they're a citizen, and everything will be fine; there's really no inconvenience at all.
- exasperaited 1y ago
  It's such a shock he turned out to be a weasel, eh? He seemed like such a straight-backed, moral, uncompromised person in his confirmation hearings.
arrosenberg 1y ago
> And if you are white and have an American accent you're going to be ignored entirely anyway. For now, until they move on to persecuting political adversaries.
- goatlover 1y ago
  They've already been doing that, just not at scale yet. Trump's political enemies like Latisha James and officials who protest ICE or try to show up at ICE facilities to inspect them.
refurb 1y ago
If the computer system says you are not a citizen but you produces then clearly one is wrong. It’s no different than a US citizen having an arrest warrant but then showing the cop a final disposition from the court showing the charges were dismissed. Whats next? It’s certainly not the cop just walking away. You detain the person until the discrepancy can be resolved. Are some innocent people going to be held in custody? Yes, in both cases. But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- 20after4 1y ago
  In this case you're detained indefinitely and not likely to see a judge for several months at best. If you ever see the light of day again.
  - refurb 1y ago
    Only in extraordinary cases where immigration status can’t be proven. If your document is suspect it’s examined. You can provide additional documents and interviewed about how you obtained your status. If you are a US citizen they can call your county that holds the birth certificate, take affidavits from parents or other family members. I mean the fact we haven’t heard of any US citizens detained for months (as you put it) is a good indication it’s not happening because you know the media would blast that story to the top for weeks.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- exasperaited 1y ago
  > But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works How it works now in Trump 2. Obama, notably, had a better approach, with a faster rate of deportation of illegal migrants, and he did so without absurd threatening intimidating cruelty, or ordering arbitrary kidnappings off the street by violent anonymised paramilitary thugs. There was a really quite high level of voluntary compliance with that system. The only reason this is all happening is that Stephen Miller wants to beat Obama's number: it consumes him that during Trump 1 they didn't get close to the performance of ICE under Obama 2. And he wants it to be showy, threatening, arbitrary, militarised and for it to overpoweringly favour white people. It's legitimately crazy to normalise it by framing it in normal terms like you are doing. There is nothing normal about this, nothing essential, procedure-based or unavoidable. It's an attempt to build a white police state.

mattgreenrocks 1y ago

> Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? They've certainly been held in custody, though. Unfortunately, lots of people are going to arrive at a first-hand understanding of the oft-repeated systems adage: "the purpose of a system is what it does."

exasperaited 1y ago
She was lying, is what I meant. She is a liar. Re: Stafford Beer, we're beyond that in so many ways —- what in ordinary times might be considered an emergent, unthinking consequence of this system is what it was actually designed to do: the terror and arbitrary quality or even the perception that the USA is hostile to foreigners, is not an accidental, emergent quality of the operation. It's Stephen Miller's intent. If you were to take a truly Stafford Beer approach to this, then you might say the purpose of this system is to desensitise Americans to the arbitrary and/or violent expression of presidential power. But when you combine that with blowing up boats that contain no combatants and could have been interdicted, the use of selective prosecution, and the confidence with which they say, look, that is exactly what we're doing, even that feels like it is pretty close to text, certainly not unconscious subtext.

roywiggins 1y ago

> you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious problem. Sure you could get locked up somewhere away from a lawyer for a few days which is terribly inconvenient This may be statistically true, but it's probably not very good advice. You might equally end up deported, now that they are running everyone through every database looking for things that might make you technically deportable that would never have come up under previous administrations: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g78nj7701o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g78nj7701o You used to be able to get bailed while stuff got sorted out. That has changed. Now they keep you locked up for months, not days. How long are you prepared to hold out before agreeing to be deported despite being in the right? Racial profiling is certainly happening, but anyone can find themselves in this situation if the wrong database pings when they walk through an airport, and once you have been dropped into immigration detention, relying on your ethnicity to get you out is not a sure thing.

exasperaited 1y ago
> This may be statistically true, but it's probably not very good advice. Oh it was partly sarcastic ("terribly inconvenient" being something of a Britishism for really quite awful)

jimt1234 1y ago

And Justice Kavanaugh said that even if someone is stopped and question by ICE, all they have to do is prove they're a citizen, and everything will be fine; there's really no inconvenience at all.

exasperaited 1y ago
It's such a shock he turned out to be a weasel, eh? He seemed like such a straight-backed, moral, uncompromised person in his confirmation hearings.

arrosenberg 1y ago

> And if you are white and have an American accent you're going to be ignored entirely anyway. For now, until they move on to persecuting political adversaries.

goatlover 1y ago
They've already been doing that, just not at scale yet. Trump's political enemies like Latisha James and officials who protest ICE or try to show up at ICE facilities to inspect them.

refurb 1y ago

If the computer system says you are not a citizen but you produces then clearly one is wrong. It’s no different than a US citizen having an arrest warrant but then showing the cop a final disposition from the court showing the charges were dismissed. Whats next? It’s certainly not the cop just walking away. You detain the person until the discrepancy can be resolved. Are some innocent people going to be held in custody? Yes, in both cases. But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
20after4 1y ago
In this case you're detained indefinitely and not likely to see a judge for several months at best. If you ever see the light of day again.
- refurb 1y ago
  Only in extraordinary cases where immigration status can’t be proven. If your document is suspect it’s examined. You can provide additional documents and interviewed about how you obtained your status. If you are a US citizen they can call your county that holds the birth certificate, take affidavits from parents or other family members. I mean the fact we haven’t heard of any US citizens detained for months (as you put it) is a good indication it’s not happening because you know the media would blast that story to the top for weeks.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
exasperaited 1y ago
> But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works How it works now in Trump 2. Obama, notably, had a better approach, with a faster rate of deportation of illegal migrants, and he did so without absurd threatening intimidating cruelty, or ordering arbitrary kidnappings off the street by violent anonymised paramilitary thugs. There was a really quite high level of voluntary compliance with that system. The only reason this is all happening is that Stephen Miller wants to beat Obama's number: it consumes him that during Trump 1 they didn't get close to the performance of ICE under Obama 2. And he wants it to be showy, threatening, arbitrary, militarised and for it to overpoweringly favour white people. It's legitimately crazy to normalise it by framing it in normal terms like you are doing. There is nothing normal about this, nothing essential, procedure-based or unavoidable. It's an attempt to build a white police state.