4 ms·

Can someone remind me why this fragmented identity system is preferable to a National ID? I get that nobody wants to be tracked by the government. But we are a

Can someone remind me why this fragmented identity system is preferable to a National ID? I get that nobody wants to be tracked by the government. But we are already being tracked... just imperfectly to the point where innocent people are being jailed. The question should be how accurate do we want the government's data on us to be. And how much of our taxpayer money do we want to spend on companies like Palantir to fuzzy match our data across systems when we could simplify this all with a primary key.

beej71 11mo ago
I think this is a valid question. The first thing that comes to mind for me is that multiple conflicting records introduce a doubt about the veracity of those records. So we might be able to consider that there has been a mistake made. Contrast that to a single identification with an error. In that case, there is no way to tell that an error has been made, and very little recourse.
kube-system 11mo ago
> Can someone remind me why this fragmented identity system is preferable to a National ID? States prefer having the power to issue ID cards and all of the control that grants them, they do not want to give up those powers, and politically the states have enough political and legal power to keep it this way. Don’t make the mistake of presuming that this the result of a flawed cooperative system. It isn’t — it’s adversarial. Just look at how long states fought to stop Real ID legislation.
dylan604 11mo ago
Because when it is convenient, people like to think state's rights means something and that the federal government is the wrong place for things like this. Giving a national ID cedes power from the states to the fed. Or so discussions go
noodlesUK 11mo ago
This argument rings especially true in the U.S. where there is already a primary key in use every day. The SSN serves as a universal enumerator but without canonical data. If the U.S. wanted to have a national ID system with rules, a defined scope, and redress procedures when things went wrong, and established it in the open, following a democratic process, I would be much happier. The system we are getting instead has all the downsides of centralisation, with none of the upsides.
- jonway 11mo ago
  Well, in the 90s through the late 2000s there was a LOT of paranoia from the right, especially the evangelical right, as well as the milieu that is sorta called the "patriot movement" which includes minutemen militias, sovereign citizens, conspiracy theorists, separatists etc. regarding Government goons coming for them, "Mark of the Beast" stuff, and New World Order global cabals and what not. They even had magazines.[0] This is the precursor to the Obama FEMA Camp conspiracy theories (Which is ironic, since we are now building camps, just you know, for those people.) Early 90's 2nd amendment anxiety, Ruby Ridge, assault weapon bans/Brady Bill and McVeigh's terrorist bombing in Oklahoma City propelled this stuff, and when we tried to impliment the national id (REAL ID Act) they very much flipped out, so they leaned on States Rights to shatter this notion, basically letting any state just not do it. 20 years later after REAL ID passed, you still don't need it unless you want to get on a plane. It is highly ironic that the very same humans brains that constitute the right wing which railed against the REAL ID act are now basically demanding REAL ID Act. This is worth reflecting on. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20060702184553/http://www.nonationalid.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20060702184553/http://www.nonati...
  - mindslight 11mo ago
    > 20 years later after REAL ID passed, you still don't need it unless you want to get on a plane ... or shop at Home Depot. > It is highly ironic that the very same humans brains that constitute the right wing which railed against the REAL ID act are now basically demanding REAL ID Act Ironic, coincidence, or all according to plan? The so-called right wing has been being led around by the corporate lobbyist agenda for decades now. It's not a terrible stretch to imagine the same corpo political operatives that were behind the ratcheting authoritarian ID requirements are now behind the fascist kidnap squads as they tighten the noose around our society. A bit paranoid and non-actionable, of course.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
    - mindslight 11mo ago
JuniperMesos 11mo ago
I don't think it is better, I think the US should implement one unified national ID system.
- lotsofpulp 11mo ago
  A passport is a national ID.
wan23 11mo ago
Ideally, the government wouldn't be doing anything that requires tracking like this. We got by for hundreds of years without it.

beej71 11mo ago

I think this is a valid question. The first thing that comes to mind for me is that multiple conflicting records introduce a doubt about the veracity of those records. So we might be able to consider that there has been a mistake made. Contrast that to a single identification with an error. In that case, there is no way to tell that an error has been made, and very little recourse.

kube-system 11mo ago

> Can someone remind me why this fragmented identity system is preferable to a National ID? States prefer having the power to issue ID cards and all of the control that grants them, they do not want to give up those powers, and politically the states have enough political and legal power to keep it this way. Don’t make the mistake of presuming that this the result of a flawed cooperative system. It isn’t — it’s adversarial. Just look at how long states fought to stop Real ID legislation.

dylan604 11mo ago

Because when it is convenient, people like to think state's rights means something and that the federal government is the wrong place for things like this. Giving a national ID cedes power from the states to the fed. Or so discussions go

noodlesUK 11mo ago

This argument rings especially true in the U.S. where there is already a primary key in use every day. The SSN serves as a universal enumerator but without canonical data. If the U.S. wanted to have a national ID system with rules, a defined scope, and redress procedures when things went wrong, and established it in the open, following a democratic process, I would be much happier. The system we are getting instead has all the downsides of centralisation, with none of the upsides.

jonway 11mo ago
Well, in the 90s through the late 2000s there was a LOT of paranoia from the right, especially the evangelical right, as well as the milieu that is sorta called the "patriot movement" which includes minutemen militias, sovereign citizens, conspiracy theorists, separatists etc. regarding Government goons coming for them, "Mark of the Beast" stuff, and New World Order global cabals and what not. They even had magazines.[0] This is the precursor to the Obama FEMA Camp conspiracy theories (Which is ironic, since we are now building camps, just you know, for those people.) Early 90's 2nd amendment anxiety, Ruby Ridge, assault weapon bans/Brady Bill and McVeigh's terrorist bombing in Oklahoma City propelled this stuff, and when we tried to impliment the national id (REAL ID Act) they very much flipped out, so they leaned on States Rights to shatter this notion, basically letting any state just not do it. 20 years later after REAL ID passed, you still don't need it unless you want to get on a plane. It is highly ironic that the very same humans brains that constitute the right wing which railed against the REAL ID act are now basically demanding REAL ID Act. This is worth reflecting on. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20060702184553/http://www.nonationalid.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20060702184553/http://www.nonati...
- mindslight 11mo ago
  > 20 years later after REAL ID passed, you still don't need it unless you want to get on a plane ... or shop at Home Depot. > It is highly ironic that the very same humans brains that constitute the right wing which railed against the REAL ID act are now basically demanding REAL ID Act Ironic, coincidence, or all according to plan? The so-called right wing has been being led around by the corporate lobbyist agenda for decades now. It's not a terrible stretch to imagine the same corpo political operatives that were behind the ratcheting authoritarian ID requirements are now behind the fascist kidnap squads as they tighten the noose around our society. A bit paranoid and non-actionable, of course.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - mindslight 11mo ago

JuniperMesos 11mo ago

I don't think it is better, I think the US should implement one unified national ID system.

lotsofpulp 11mo ago
A passport is a national ID.

wan23 11mo ago

Ideally, the government wouldn't be doing anything that requires tracking like this. We got by for hundreds of years without it.